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Buick FireBall V6 engines.... info?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Kojack, Oct 22, 2003.

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  1. Cgrgrspt10
    Joined: Mar 22, 2014
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    Cgrgrspt10
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  2. fiftyv8
    Joined: Mar 11, 2007
    Posts: 5,394

    fiftyv8
    Member
    from CO & WA

    Great and thanks for sharing.
    How did you deal with the oil filter positioning?
    I like the fact that no firewall cut is required for the Fireball.
     
  3. 31Apickup
    Joined: Nov 8, 2005
    Posts: 3,367

    31Apickup
    Member

    Oil filter clears fine, a little tight on the lower radiator hose. If I remember correctly the older 225 uses a larger filter so it may be even tighter.[​IMG]


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  4. fiftyv8
    Joined: Mar 11, 2007
    Posts: 5,394

    fiftyv8
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    from CO & WA

    Thanks. Yes mine is much the same.
    I always wondered if there was a secret solution I had not heard of.
    I had considered working out a remote setup, but just don't need the extra work. WI Image0764 (3).jpg
     
  5. I ran a 225 in my A roadster, and filter clearance was an issue during install or removal. I took a little slice off very end of the threaded nipple. A friend in the parts business, found me short filter to fit, as well.
     
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  6. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
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    Hnstray
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    from Quincy, IL

    I used remote mount oil filters on a couple of swaps. An aluminum adapter screwed onto the OEM filter base and had pipe thread inlet/outlet ports. Also included a remote mounted base with matching ports. Locate the remote mount wherever it made sense and plumb them appropriately and motor on. In the ‘70s thru the early ‘80s I did five V6 Buick swaps, all successful and satisfying, one with factory Turbo. All chronicled elsewhere in older posts.

    Ray
     
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  7. 31Apickup
    Joined: Nov 8, 2005
    Posts: 3,367

    31Apickup
    Member

    Besides going to a remote filter, the front timing cover on a 225 could be swapped to the 231 metric cover that uses the smaller filter.


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  8. fiftyv8
    Joined: Mar 11, 2007
    Posts: 5,394

    fiftyv8
    Member
    from CO & WA

    One last parting question that comes to mind that will possibly compliment this thread and that is what trannys easily fit behind these engines.
    Mine currently has a power glide which is one tranny I do not warm to for street use.
    Is there a T700R4 tranny that will fit???
     
  9. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 12,355

    Hnstray
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    from Quincy, IL

    @fiftyv8 .......To the best of my knowledge, all TH700R4 were Chevy only bolt pattern, except for the model used in 60* V6 & 4 cyl S-10/Camaro applications. All rear wheel drive applications of 225/231/252 Buick V6 use the common BOP block to trans bolt pattern. That pattern shares in common with the Chevy pattern the bottom bolt on each side and the locating dowels.

    What has been done, and the part is sold by a few vendors, is to use a thin plate ( I think about 3/16” or 1/4”) that is drilled for both patterns to attach one to the other at the non-matching bolt holes. That also requires same thickness spacers between the torque converter and flex plate to maintain correct TC positioning.

    All that said, IMO, the 700 trans is not your best option. The TH2004R is a better match for your purposes if you want an overdrive automatic. The 2004R is a little smaller in girth, but more importantly, it has much better gear ratio spread and less internal drag. It also has the multi-fit case equipped with both the Chevy and BOP bolt patterns, so it is a direct bolt on.

    But another alternative worth considering is the TH350. They were commonly produced in patterns to fit Chevy and also to fit BOP engines. In later/last produced versions they could be found with multi-fit housing bolt pattern. Not an overdrive, but not all vehicles are used in a manner that really benefits from OD. With a thoughtful choice of axle ratio, you can have both good performance and decent mileage.

    Ray
     
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  10. I used one of the dual pattern Turbo 350's behind mine. Worked and fit great. The use of automatic overdrives in hot rods wasn't that prevalent at the time of my build. Mid 80's.
     
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  11. fiftyv8
    Joined: Mar 11, 2007
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    fiftyv8
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    from CO & WA

    Guys I appreciate your comments regarding trannys and my question as much for me as it was for a historical record for those that follow us.
    I actually do own a BOP T350 that was originally purchased for this purpose but got to thinking about options that I may have missed or not even known about.
    I don't get out as much these days and who knows what is going on with other more recent choices.
    I do like the sound of the T2004R option, it sounds like something that would fit the bill so to speak.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2020
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  12. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
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    Hnstray
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    from Quincy, IL

    @fiftyv8 ......I am installing a 2004R, along with a Chevy 250 six, in my current build ‘37 Chevy coupe. My original intention was to use a multi-fit TH350. But when my tranny builder opened it up he discovered some water had gotten into it, and though not “ruined”, he felt the time consuming labor was prohibitive. I also had on hand a 2004R core, so I chose to have it rebuilt.

    It and the engine are prepped and awaiting installation. Presently I am using an old 230 block to locate motor mount position, firewall mods and trans cross member position.

    Ray
     
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  13. fiftyv8
    Joined: Mar 11, 2007
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    fiftyv8
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    from CO & WA

    Those BOP bell housing sure look unusual.

    [​IMG]
     
  14. fiftyv8
    Joined: Mar 11, 2007
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    fiftyv8
    Member
    from CO & WA

    This pic looks to be a comparison between something???[​IMG]
     
  15. 56sedandelivery
    Joined: Nov 21, 2006
    Posts: 6,695

    56sedandelivery
    Member Emeritus

    ^^^^The red one is a Chevrolet pattern TH-400, the black one a TH-350 with the Vari-fit bell-housing (fits both Chevrolet and the BOP patterns).^^^^ I am Butch/56sedandelivery.
     
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  16. fiftyv8
    Joined: Mar 11, 2007
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    fiftyv8
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    from CO & WA

    I guess this is the Chevy to BOP trans adapter mentioned earlier.

    [​IMG]
     
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  17. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
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    Hnstray
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    from Quincy, IL

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  18. 31Apickup
    Joined: Nov 8, 2005
    Posts: 3,367

    31Apickup
    Member

    The Jeepster Commando’s ran a turbo 400 from the factory behind the 225. The used a heavy weight flex plate. Actually had one as my first drivable vehicle. When I built my A years ago I was given a turbo 400, so that is what I used, claim to suck down the power but it’s been fine. If I ever get around to doing a refresh on the truck, I’ll probably go with a 200r4. Hit a big pot hole one night in the A coming home from a cruise a number of years ago, knee hit the shifter into reverse locked the tires up and then stalled. Restarted it up and drove home trans still works fine.


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  19. Back in the 80's my buddy built up a 225 with mild cam, intake and 4 bbl. Had a Turbo 400 behind it, in a 38 Willys pickup. I had a 225 with 2bbl, and Turbo 350. He used to get mad, because I could always get away from him at the lights. Not sure if it was slight weight difference in vehicles(mine was A roadster), or the transmission parasitic loss. Rear gearing was similar, if not better for his.
     
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  20. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
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    Hnstray
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    from Quincy, IL

    Probably a combination of factors that made the difference in your favor. Lots of engines that get the ‘standard performance treatment’.....cam, bigger carb, etc. and are not properly matched or are tuned for high end, not low end, coupled with the higher parasitic loss of the T400 and/or stall speed of the converter....???

    Just revel in the fact your milder combo got the job done. :D

    Ray
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
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  21. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
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    Hnstray
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    from Quincy, IL

    As I recall, the Jeepster commando DID use a T400, but it was the ‘64/‘66 ST400 with a 401/425 Buick block bolt pattern, using an OEM adapter to the BOP block pattern of the 225!! Kind of a Rube Goldberg arrangement.

    Buick started using the BOP pattern in ‘64 on the 225 V6 and 300 V8, but the bigger engines didn’t adopt that pattern until the ‘67 400/430 engines were introduced...IIRC. The original ST (Super Turbine) 400 had the ‘switch pitch’ torque converter with the 401/425 block pattern as I mentioned above.

    The switch pitch converter was continued through 1967 models for sure, possibly ‘68, but I seem to recall ended with ‘67 production. The switch pitch feature was also used with the ST300 2 speed automatic, used with both 225 V6 and 300 V8s. I used a ST300/225 V6 in an OT mini truck swap in 1970.

    Ray
     
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  22. 31Apickup
    Joined: Nov 8, 2005
    Posts: 3,367

    31Apickup
    Member

    Commando’s came with the BOP 400, that’s what I had and what the factory repair manual showed too. It’s the wagoners and pickups that used the adapter to the Buick 350.


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  23. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
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    Hnstray
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    from Quincy, IL

    Well, golldurn! Sorry to post misinformation. Apparently, my recollection ain’t what it used to be......can c-nile be nearer than I thought? :confused: :D

    Thanks for the correction......;)

    Ray
     
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  24. dan c
    Joined: Jan 30, 2012
    Posts: 2,520

    dan c
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    gm sold that POS to jeep, and it was universally reviled. gm bought it back, designed an even-fire crank for the 3.8. damn good engine that had one weak spot: like the buick v8, it had an external oil pump which fed oil through a number of 90* turns. you have to run 20w50 in hot weather or your mill will grenade at a stoplight!
     
  25. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
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    Hnstray
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    from Quincy, IL

    That seems a bit of exaggeration........:D

    Ray
     
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  26. Do you have a thread on the '37 Ray?

    Ben
     
  27. fiftyv8
    Joined: Mar 11, 2007
    Posts: 5,394

    fiftyv8
    Member
    from CO & WA


    31Apickup, what rearend gears are you running behind that V6?
    Are you happy with your choice or do you some comments regarding your choice?
     
  28. fiftyv8
    Joined: Mar 11, 2007
    Posts: 5,394

    fiftyv8
    Member
    from CO & WA

    Just found this link;

    https://www.hemmings.com/stories/article/gm-th-200-4r-transmissions

    Part of it reads;

    The TH-200-4R, like the TH-350, uses a 27-spline output shaft, which is similar in length to the TH-350 and the TH-200, making it a natural for many overdrive conversions. The TH-200-4R is also similar in length to the Powerglide and the B-O-P Super-Turbine 300 (two-speed), which makes it a popular unit for converting from a two-speed to a four-speed automatic.

    The TH-200-4R has a 2.74:1 first gear ratio, and overdrive is 0.67:1. Its odd-shaped 16-bolt pan has 13mm bolt heads. The TH-200-4R was used in GM rear-wheel-drive cars equipped with the 231 Buick, 301 Pontiac, and the Oldsmobile 307, 350 gas and 350 diesel engines from 1981-'90; however, many Chevrolet 267 and 305 V-8s also used the TH-200-4R because of the multi-fit bellhousing. You can find a donor TH-200-4R in one of these cars:

    The transmission identification is on a plate on the right side of the case towards the tailshaft. This ID plate is attached by one rivet. The plate will have a two- or three-letter transmission code in large letters.
    The most desirable TH-200-4Rs for performance enthusiasts are the units manufactured for Buick Grand National, Olds 4-4-2 and Chevy Monte Carlo SS in 1986-'87. These units used a special valve body. They also had a larger reverse boost valve, second to third intermediate servo, and a specially designed governor assembly. Their BQ, OZ, CZF, KZF or BRF transmission codes can identify these more desirable units.

    This transmission is ideal for swapping with a TH-350 or a Powerglide, because the overall length and the bell housing bolt pattern of the TH-200-4R are the same, and your original driveshaft does not have to be shortened. The output shaft is 27-spline, the same as the TH-350's. Moving the crossmember will be necessary, because the TH-200-4R crossmember is mounted on the extreme end of the tailshaft.
     
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  29. gsjohnny
    Joined: Nov 27, 2007
    Posts: 241

    gsjohnny
    Member

    regarding the oil filter plate, there are 7 different clock positions for the buick engines and then there are 2 or 3 on the british 215 version. i had to aquire all of them to figure out if i could use an oil filter on my 350 in the dragster. guess what..... no room for a filter so i made a cover in place of the filter. works fine.
    bought an altered a couple of months ago. that will get 2 v6's in it. one will be s/c'ed, the other an ingelse weber setup. would like to acquire another ingelse setup if anybody knows of one for sale.
     
  30. 31Apickup
    Joined: Nov 8, 2005
    Posts: 3,367

    31Apickup
    Member

    I think it’s a 2.79:1 gear in the rear axle. It’s a Maverick 8”. It cruises best at 45-55 mph, although I’ve run it 70-75 on the freeway, but it’s aerodynamic as a barn door.! It does drag down on large hills at freeway speeds.


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