Buick FireBall V6 engines.... info?

Everything old should be saved. But that requires someone to save it. Are you up to it? I probably would let it pass.

 

By all means save it. I have an '80 4.1 L V-6 being built right now and it will go into that '27T Roadster in the foto to the left. When I get the dyno story I will post it here.

 

When I lifted the hood I was expecting a V-8. It is such a small V-6 in physical size that it would fit in anything. I try and save as much as I can and ebay stuff to help finance my projects. I'm going to pull off the fenders and I'm ebaying the factory A/C parts from this Skylark. That motor is so NEAT sitting in their.

 

I'm building a bike using the 198 and need to locate a set of headers. Can someone help a guy out? The cylinder ID is 6 I 7541.

 

Don't know if anybody in the header business still offers them, but back in the day fenderwell headers were readily available for the V6 Jeep 'Universals' (pre-historic 'Wrangler'). I used to do Jap pickup Buick V6 swaps and used those as a starting point for an exhaust system in a Toyota HiLux swap.

The Jeeps used the 225 engine, but the manifold pattern is the same on the 198.

 

The Jeep 225 used the BOP bellhousing, 1966 and later. So you need pre 66.

 

I'm a bit late in living up to posting the dyno run on my 4.1L Buick so here it is. BTW it came out 326 HP & 363 ft/lbs torque. Well done Sehr Performance!

 

This is only partially correct. The jeep did use the 225 and it had the BOP block pattern, but that pattern started being used in 1964 model Buicks when the 225 replaced the 198. So, any rear drive Buick V6 (even some Cadillacs with the 252 4.1L) from 1964 onward is BOP. The later front driver 3800 90* V6 engines use the GM 4 cyl and 60* V6 block pattern. That can be fitted with a 700R4 from an S-10 for rear drive application.

Ray

 

Actually the first to use BOP pattern, even though not formally introduced as, was the 61 Pontiac
V8's. (Tempest 4 cylinder may have been the same too). The only real difference was the block mounted starter, which did enter in 1964. Buick, Olds, and Pontiac introduced the BOP in 64 intermediate cars, Buick going to BOP in 1967 on large cars, Olds in 1965. Pontiac block mounted starters were first used in larger cars in 1965. Cadillac went to BOP in 1968.

 

d2_willys.......my phrasing "but that pattern started being used....." was intended to be only in reference to Buick V6 and 300 V8 engines............

Ray

 

Ray, just trying to establish the history around the BOP. Not trying to piss anyone off. Especially a good guy like you. Tomorrow, I will dig my 57 Dynaflow bell housing out and compare the pattern dimensions to what you sent me. I don't think it will be that hard to adapt that plate for the 57-66 bell pattern, but the starter and flywheel still worry me.
Do you know if the straight 8 crank flange is the same dimensions as the nailheads?

 

Damien,

No offense taken...just wanted to clarify my post's intent.

I have no information, or samples to measure, on Nailhead crank flanges. I can tell you that the 248/263 straight 8 engines had various configurations among different year models and stick vs Dynaflow. As an example, I have three 263 straight 8 cranks, two verified '53 model year Dynaflow and one (believed to be '53) stick, and all are different. The stick being different is no surprise, but the Dynaflow's variations were unexpected.

Ray

 

1962 for the 198 1975 for the 231 77 for the change to even fire and 1980 to 84 for the 252.

 

Wow, I could see the stick crank flange being different, but two Dynaflow crank flanges being different? Would it be possible to take some pics of the two Dynaflow crank flanges and give me some measurements? Just email the attachements to me.
I do have the flex plate for 57-63 Dynaflow nail head, so I can measure that and see what differences there are between them and your crank flanges. And if I remember, the 64-66 Nailheads had a different flange too. (The SP400 had a different size converter snout then the Dynaflow)

 

Just a quick post to wake up the dead.
I have a Buick Fireball 225 V6 engine about 1964 era.
I wanted to find a HEI dizzy for it.
Are there interchangeable and non interchangeable Dizzy's amongst all these similar V6 engines?
It has the BOP bellhousing bolt pattern if that helps...

Pic of engine in Post # 23 on Page 1 of this Thread.

 

Yeah, I remember watching them in the Busch series. Being used to the sound of the V8s, it was hard to get used to the sounds of the 6s, but they performed well.
I have a low mileage 81 turbo Regal in the back yard, and I haven't been able to bring myself to sell it.
Years ago, I had some 4x4 friends (all passed now, unfortunately), that were heavy into putting the Buick V6s into the older Jeep chassis, and they would be willing to step on their friends tongues to get at an available odd fire engine first. They bought every one they could find, they loved them that much.
Bob

 

You can use an HEI distributor, but it must be one for a odd-fire which would be early 1977 -1975. I may be able to get a photo sometime this weekend to show the difference between a odd fire and even fire distributor.


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31A is correct.

I have two Vertex magnetos for the odd fire Buick V-6 engine. One is the older, original version, it's fully encased, one single piece.
The other is an OXC version, that has the coil as a separate part.
Neither have mechanical advance in them. Have an unused copper plug wire set for each.

Along with a few other leftovers from a "stillborn" project years ago.
Like a brand new odd fire billet crank shaft, a 6-71 blower manifold, a front cover that's been modified to mount a Hilborn fuel pump, and on and on.

Mike

 

OK thanks for the lead, so if I have it right, I can search say eBay with this title below and I should find a dizzy that will work.

225 231 Buick Odd Fire Dauntless V6 HEI Distributor

I see one ebay item they states the following;

*When installing on a stock 225 V6 odd fire motor with a stock intake manifold, approximately 3/16 of an inch needs to be ground off the front corner of the intake on the drivers side for the distributor to clear. Also, when installing this unit on a stock motor, the ballast resistor will need to be by passed, this distributor requires 12 volts where as the stock distributors used 9 volts.

I am looking for a setup with a small cap and a separate coil so not in the cap.

 

That appears to be the Coil in Cap HEI unit that you do not want.

If you want a small cap 'HEI' unit, you would have to convert an older points setup to magnetic pickup and then wire in the HEI module and mount an E-core coil elsewhere.

Otherwise it's just a magnetic 'electronic' pickup conversion from WVE.

 

Yes, that is what I'd like below: something as per this pic but in a V6 setup...

However in saying all that in my previous post with the large cap, in all other respects will this unit work in my 225 Fireball engine???

 

All odd fire distributors interchange between 225 and 231. The 231 with HEI uses a low head torx head bolt on the intake to clear the distributor.


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Great and thanks to you guys who made comment.
I recall there was a guy in Phoenix AZ selling small cap Dizzy's to suit, but I have some how lost his details.
Not sure if he will resurface with the current, here today gone tomorrow pandemic thing...

 

Made a lot of money in the 80's replacing odd fire V6's across the GM line up, by the late 80's early 90's when they figured out how make them even fire the 3.5l was a decent engine.

 

Why not talk to the SUPER BELL coupe owner, Frank Mor(don't know how to spell his last name).He could probably answer any ? you may have. This was a great thread, thanks................

 

Why all the answers are here, I’ve been messing with odd fire v-6 since 1978 and been running one in my A since 1987z


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Any pic's of your engine bay 31Apickup.
How close to 67th Ave SE are you?
PM if you like.

 

Though I preferred to use the even fire 231, once they were introduced, there was really nothing wrong with the few odd fire 225‘s I used previously. The possible exception being, they seemed to be hard on timing chains. Given the odd fire arrangement, it follows the cam lobe timing was also unevenly spaced and resulted in a constant varying load on the chain and sprockets.

The odd fire 198 & 225 engines had a inherent horizontal shake moment and the Buick engineers tuned the motors mounts to be pretty soft to reduce transfer to the chassis. In stock applications, that shake was visible and i think disconcerting to some people.

All in all, the increased cubic inches from 198 to 225/231 along with the even fire crank were worthwhile improvements to a basically sound evolution of the Buick aluminum 215 V8 design transitioning to iron V6 then iron V8 in 1964. The derivative 3800 V6 is legendary for it’s fuel economy and durability.

I understand the reasoning of Chevy loyalists........ but I am a very long time Buick fan!

(and Mopar too!)

Ray

 

Here’s the visual difference between an odd fire HEI and and even fire HEI. The stator and pickups are different too, so it isn’t as simple as switching the caps. Top photo is an even fire, second is an odd fire. note the location of the plug terminals.


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Here’s a picture In my Model A pickup, this ones is a 75-76 odd fire with a Holley street dominator 4 barrel intake which I’m running a Quadrajet from a 4.1 Buick V6.


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