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Technical Can I Thin a Large Flat Washer?

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by HuskerNation, Aug 7, 2020.

  1. HuskerNation
    Joined: Dec 28, 2010
    Posts: 337

    HuskerNation

    I need a 1/16” thick washer to use as a cam thrust washer but have been unable to find anything. I did however find 1/8” thick washers in brass which could work if I can somehow thin them down. Not having a lathe or mill, I’m wondering if there is anyway I can actually accomplish this?

    Previously there was a phenolic type washer that broke apart:
    RenderedImage.jpg



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  2. badshifter
    Joined: Apr 28, 2006
    Posts: 3,535

    badshifter
    Member

    Some brass sheet stock from McMaster Carr or similar source and 2 hole saws or better yet chassis punches, and you have a 1/16" thick washer.
    What engine?
     
  3. HuskerNation
    Joined: Dec 28, 2010
    Posts: 337

    HuskerNation

    The engine is a 37 Hudson 212ci 6cyl (splasher). I’d done an in car re-fresh of the engine but didn’t realize the problems these engines have with eating the old OEM cam thrust washers. I was originally hopeful I could cut the washer & slip it into place without completely removing the cam but I’m not so sure it’s really possible.

    If the cam has to come out the head comes off, valves & lifters out & intake off,at minimum, just to get at everything. But if the cam comes out, I’m not putting it back without a performance grind put on it & bigger intake valves at minimum. Which means it will be spring before she’s on the road again and that is what I’m trying to avoid.



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  4. Boneyard51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2017
    Posts: 6,440

    Boneyard51
    Member

    This is kinda backyard, but take a three inch piece of round wood , a little larger than your washer and drill a hole about 1 inch deep in it with a about 5/16 drill bit as close to center as possible. Then glue the bit into the wood. The lock your drill press and dress the lower surface square in relationship to the base of your drill press, with a sharpen chisel. Then push that down onto the base with sand paper there, and turn till true. Then glue your washer to that surface. Place sand paper on your drill press base. Press the rig down while turning. You should have a fairly even straight thinner washer. May take a couple sheets of sandpaper!






    Bones
     

  5. Have you tried ACE hardware? HRP
     
    '51 Norm likes this.
  6. partssaloon
    Joined: Jan 28, 2009
    Posts: 676

    partssaloon
    Member

    You want to look for a Machinery Bushing. They come in thickness' from 10ga. to 20ga.
     
  7. 62SY4
    Joined: Oct 30, 2009
    Posts: 102

    62SY4
    Member
    from Irwin, Pa

  8. ekimneirbo
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 4,214

    ekimneirbo

    Instead of a washer, are the surface areas around the cam drillable (thick) where you could drill additional holes and tap them? If so, you could make two separate pieces. Horseshoe shaped on one end and just square (whatever fits) on the opposite end. Then you could just slide them in place and screw them to the block. Your picture is not clear enough to tell if this would work or not, but it would sure make future replacement easier. I'd hate to think I'd have to do that much disassembly every time the cam spacer fails. You just make a hole with the right size hole saw in a thin piece of brass,alum,steel plate and then cut it in half at the center of the hole.
    Also, I would think twice about grinding a rare cam like that for a race profile. You make the base circle smaller and the lobes and then you have to find lifters that work in it and take up the slack you created. The cam may need some tlc, but I'd be cautious about what I did to it.
     
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  9. HuskerNation
    Joined: Dec 28, 2010
    Posts: 337

    HuskerNation

    Some great ideas! I should have stated at the beginning, the head of the cam is 2.5” across. So I can do an OD of 2.5” or maybe bigger with an ID of a tad over 2.0”.

    Thats is an interesting idea to split it & perhaps drill & tap the block to hold it in place. I’ll have to keep an eye out for 1/16” material or some how grind the brass washer I have thinner.


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  10. HuskerNation
    Joined: Dec 28, 2010
    Posts: 337

    HuskerNation

    I’ll try some more pictures to see if they help.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]





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  11. HuskerNation
    Joined: Dec 28, 2010
    Posts: 337

    HuskerNation

    As you may have seen the heads of the two bolts were hitting on the back of the cam gear, as the cam moved in & out. (Circled in red)

    Your right, I should really find another cam & lifters to send off so I don’t screw up the only cam I have.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


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  12. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member Emeritus

    If I was doing it, I would go with the brass shim stock and hole saws. If you don't have hole saws do you have friends?
     
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  13. Kiwi 4d
    Joined: Sep 16, 2006
    Posts: 3,564

    Kiwi 4d
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Steel shim spacers should be readily available in variable thickness.
     
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  14. hotrod37
    Joined: Aug 8, 2006
    Posts: 123

    hotrod37
    Member
    from Indiana

    Could you cut along the circumference (slight angle), and just “screw” it behind the end of the cam? (Like a spring)
     
  15. If that phenolic was factory, I'd try a square piece of brass or bronze with just a 'U' cut into it. You won't have 360 degree coverage, but the gap will allow oiling and you should end up with about 220 degrees of coverage or so. With a little fabbing of new tabs, you can probably even use those existing two bolts to retain it.
     
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  16. ekimneirbo
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 4,214

    ekimneirbo

    What I would like to see is a view on a slight angle where I can see the space or area between the raised area on the left and the surface behind it. Is there a gap there? Is the surface to the right of the cam the engine block or part of a housing? The screw heads rubbing on the back of the gear needs to be dealt with, but that might have been because the phenolic broke. It also might help if there is a way to direct more oil to this area to help resist wear when you substitute a different materials for the phenolic.
     
  17. blue 49
    Joined: Dec 24, 2006
    Posts: 1,820

    blue 49
    Member
    from Iowa

    I'm thinking a transmission shop might have a thrust washer that would work for you.

    Gary
     
  18. deathrowdave
    Joined: May 27, 2014
    Posts: 3,518

    deathrowdave
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from NKy

    NP 205 transfer case has 2 on the center shaft , close to what you need
     
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  19. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 23,263

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    https://www.grainger.com/product/BL-Thrust-Washer-35TY56
     
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  20. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 23,263

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    "THRUST WASHERS

    THRUST 1 1934-52 HUDSON 8, 1934-47 HUDSON, TERRAPLANE 6 CAM THRUST WASHER - THIS ITEM HAS USUALLY DISINTEGRATED BUT IS NECESSARY ON ALL THESE SPLASHER ENGINES- $20.00"

    https://www.hudsonmotorcarco.com/parts.htm
     
  21. nunattax
    Joined: Jan 10, 2011
    Posts: 3,052

    nunattax
    Member
    from IRELAND

    what i would do.since the original part is available i would buy one of those maybe two.you could get back on the road straight away.the shim is wearing from lack of lubrication can a replacement be machined from improved (self lubricating )material from mcmaster carr.if its worth fixing its worth doing it right.clean the block thoroughly,it looks from the photos that there are small pieces of crud floating about. new oil and filter time.
     
  22. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 23,263

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

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  23. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 33,861

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    In answer to the original question. I have "polished" washers/spacers down by laying a sheet of sandpaper or emery cloth on a flat piece of glass and sliding it on the abrasive paper until my fingers ached.
     
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  24. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member Emeritus

    So how did this ever come out? Did you buy the washer from Grainger? Or the replacement? I could make one from brass. But not for $7.
     
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  25. lippy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2006
    Posts: 6,825

    lippy
    Member
    from Ks

    Me too, what happened?
     
  26. HuskerNation
    Joined: Dec 28, 2010
    Posts: 337

    HuskerNation

    Ok, I just buttoned it up tonight for the second time in a week. Hopefully this is the end of it!

    So I took the angle grinder to a brass washer & screwed a deck screw into a 2x4 with the washer around the screw then used the grinder. With a fair amount of pressure I could keep the washer spinning to a manageable amount & it came out to 0.070. With some sandpaper work on it it was a real nice 0.068” & the new OEM style replacement was 0.069”. I took the group’s recommendation & cut it “U” shaped. I drilled & tapped a hole at the edge of the washer, then had to bevel the contact of the 8-32 screw (Loctite on the screw to hold it tight) on the washer for it to lay flat. I outlined the cam head against the washer so I’m close to 2/3 of the cam head supported by the brass washer.
    [​IMG]

    Next I removed the two bolt heads that we’re hitting the back of the cam gear took the grinding wheel to them both & reinstalled them. After taking off 0.040”, if I remember correctly.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Everything looking good i buttoned up the timing cover & installed the balancer on the crank. When I ran it, the rattly noise was gone but now I had a whirling & whine noise! Ugh! So after adjusting the valves & not seeing improvement off came the timing cover again. At this point I thought it was the aluminum cam gear not quite meshing with the crank gear, since I swapped the cam gear to a newer one. I pulled the cam gear & was going to button it up with the old cam gear when I had some divine intervention & decided to re read the instructions for doing the aluminum cam gear retrofitting. As I read it I found an area I wasn’t sure was done. That was to grind back the curve next to the cam head to the back side lip cam slide down where it needs to be. Well looking at the area that should have been ground, I could see it hadn’t been done. Looking closer I noticed a grove next to it that wasn’t as big as it was now. Checking pictures I took previously showed I was correct, the grove was deeper & longer as the aluminum gear was rubbing on the steel, thus giving me the whirling/whining sound.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    So instead of removing the front plate from the block & grinding it, I chose to grind the back of the aluminum cam gear instead, taking off 0.050”. I only needed 0.020-0.025” off but decided to take a bit more. A playdoh test showed it wasn’t hitting anymore. However the bolt heads I ground were very very close to hitting the spokes again. Out came the locking washers & in went Loctite to hold them in place (note the bore scope picture below was before the washers were removed). I next used my bore scope to make sure it was all good back there & it was!
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    So with new safety wire on the cam bolts she was ready to put the new gasket on with the timing cover. She’s once again buttoned up and hopefully fully correct now. Tomorrow I’ll run her & see how it goes!
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]





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    Last edited: Aug 25, 2020
  27. HuskerNation
    Joined: Dec 28, 2010
    Posts: 337

    HuskerNation

    In this video you can hear that whirling /whining noise. I believe it was the aluminum cam gear rubbing on the steel plate. Or I’m hoping that’s what the noise was & tomorrow when I test it it will be gone!





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  28. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 23,263

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Fingers, toes, and eyes crossed!
     
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  29. HuskerNation
    Joined: Dec 28, 2010
    Posts: 337

    HuskerNation

    I just started it up & without valve covers on or coolant in the engine, she’s never sounded so good! I’m in complete shock & just as giddy! I truly can’t believe it’s finally running well... not 100% new engine rebuilt perfect but so much better!!!!

    I’ll post a video later, gotta run it again because I’m in disbelief & then check valves before putting her back together again.


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  30. HuskerNation
    Joined: Dec 28, 2010
    Posts: 337

    HuskerNation

    She still has side (valve) covers off & no coolant in her & while not perfectly quiet, she’s so much better now that all the repairs are done & done correctly!





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