Technical Wide Ratio or Close Ratio Manual Trans?

No but I sure would like to be able to afford a real Henry roadster (body).
That was actually (one of) my dreams prior to becoming a fan of the Bowtie but I never really cared much for the early Chevy tin.

I will admit my interest in old Ford tin is pretty selective and as far as FoMoCo power goes noooo!
I actually was introduced to speed by my grade school pals older brothers Sunbeam Tiger and spent a fair amount of time around a handful of local Ford drag racers in the 70's.
So I do have a lot of respect for their capabilities, just don't have the desire to own one.

 

Steve, first, sorry to run your thread off the rails.
If your GF is amicable to driving a stick shift, you might consider the Richmond four speeds, I still feel they offer the most bang for the buck, even though the price for them has gone up a bit since I bought mine many years ago and because my car is still a stalled project I can't really give any durability feedback.

 

Here, I modified D Denny's chart for ease of comparison. First, an enjoyable driving street machine is one that can cruise with todays 80 mph traffic while the engine is turning 1800/2100 rpms. A max hp camshaft can affect the ability to enjoy that rpm range. I would look at what rear gear/tire size and overdrive ratio gives you that situation.
Then I would look at whether that situation works well with either the 2.87 or 3.27 TKO first gear. Obviously the lower gear gives more ooomph but you give up 100 ft lbs of reliability. Then I would look at the 3800 lbs and the size of the rear tires (width). Common sense tells you that the safest combo is the 600........but will the engine of choice have that much hp/torque. If its a lower HP (400-) then the wide ratio should be fine. If its greater than 400 HP and has wide tires I would want the additional strength of the 600. Its a balancing act that only Steve can decide what suits him. In either case the stronger transmission and overdrive are a better choice than a weaker non-overdrive 4 speed. You also have to consider the torque capacity of the 4 speed wide ratio...266 ft lbs.

The close ratio TKO has the same or lower first gear than the Super T10 close ratio. Only the wide ratio has a lower first gear than either TKO and it has a very meager 266ft lb rating. I would not want that behind a strong engine in a 3800 lb car.

The wide ratio pits a 3.42 ratio against 3.27 TKO and 266 ft lbs against 500 ft lbs. To me there is no question which of these is the best choice.

 

I like to over simplify shit. Let's think snowmobile or other CVT managed delivery, shall we? A sled "shifts" from about 3.8 to .8 as it's ripping along at WFO. You don't feel it but that's not the point. The RPM, if the CVT is calibrated right, never changes except from engagement to peak HP. I.E., "hits" at 5000 and runs up to 8500 in about 20' and stays there. The intent of a close ratio trans is much the same which doesn't make for a lot of fun on the street. I had an O/T Boss 302 that the previous owner put a wide ratio trans in. Even though it was "peaky" engine by design it was a monster on the street and a pleasure to just drive. Brain food, maybe...

 

Since I retired as a machinist, math makes my head hurt so I tend to leave this to you smart guys.
Well done!

 

well even that is subject to conditions. for instance, if you are road racing on a tight track, but one that has long straights, then the close ratio might be the best choice. if you are on a wider track, with shorter straights, the wide ratio might work better depending on what rear gear you intend to run at either track.

if you are running on an oval track where you have to get into and out of the pits regularly, then the wide ratio gear set is going to be the better choice, unless you are a track like pocono where you might downshift going into turn one, and run third gear through the exit of turn three. aagain depending on what rear gear you run.

for the street wide ratio gear sets are generally better. if your race engine has a narrow rpm band it runs in, then the close ratio gear set works best generally. wide rpm band, wide ratio gear set. but again at the track you want to run several laps with both if you are learning the track and see what combination gives you the fastest, and most consistent lap times.

for drag racing same thing.

in the end its all in the overall combination, including the type of track and weather conditions you are running in.

 

Denny, the problem with the Super T10 is that in Ford configuration they really don't exist. Sure, Richmond sells a Ford version but it isn't something you'll find on the used market easily (if at all). If you buy new, by the time you add in linkage costs you're probably back to the price of a Tremec TKO. And losing 125 ft-lbs of torque capacity (at least) in the bargain, as well as OD.

 

A wide ratio Toploader would be a good choice, providing you could live without OD. With the 2.78 first gear, that 390 should pull a 3.00 rear gear.

 

Nope,ain't buying that............I've seen enough of your posts to know you are still sharp!

 

I guess I just can't let go of my old ways Steve, I was always a pretty devout 4 speed guy.
Besides, that whole Tremic, TKO, five speed, six speed, overdrive talk just doesn't roll off my tongue like Muncie, Borg Warner, Hurst Comp. Plus etc.
Seems the talk anymore is too high engine rpm at cruise speed, noise, gas mileage, etc.
Just never came up in my circle, I would feel like standing in the corner by myself nursing my beer.

 

And that may prove to be good solution, certainly the least-expensive option... as long as I can find suitable shift linkage. Budget considerations will rear it's head at some point I'm sure... LOL..

The main reason I'm looking at the TKO is I can run a lower rear gear without a large sacrifice in fuel economy. Three-flat rear gears in a 3800 lb car is not a recipe for sparkling performance...

 

In '68 I had a 65 impala , 327 -300 , m20 wide ratio 3.36 rear L60-15 rear tires , wasn't a race car but it was fun , put in a 396-350 in with the same drive line , more torque was fun. Put a 454-450 next with the same drive line , cruised effortlessly @70 , I never thought 3000 rpm @70 was a big deal . that's the one car I'd like to have back . I'd stick with the toploader !

 

I'd with the 2.87 low that would have been a wide ratio in the 60s A wide ratio gm t10 was 2.54

 

Couple more things to consider. How big is the gas tank gonna be, because you don't want to be stopping to fill up a lot. Will your engine be built so it can run on regular, or will you have to use premium at premium prices ? If you plan to drive the car a lot, gas needs are something worth thinking about. On my next build I'm going for lots of cubic inches but keeping the compression ratio down. Plan to have a squish area but keep compression at 10 or a little less. Anyway it's all part of deciding how to make the car enjoyable and afFORDable........

 

Yeah, you're right about that. First is bit lower on the TKO but 2nd and 3rd are nearly the same compared to a wide-ratio toploader. You can also get that combo with the .82 OD, so you won't have such a big jump between 4th and 5th. My DD has a .62 OD with 3.27 rear gears and it's pretty much useless under 60 MPH. I do a lot of driving between 50-60, so that's important to me.

 

I don’t know the answer I guess, but my ‘55 Chevy in 1972 ran a ‘69 DZ302 with 12:1 compression, 5:13 gears,Hayes clutch and Muncie close ratio 4spd. Damn.......that car was Fun and Fast. Great memories!

 

Had Both back in the day and IMO the close ratio just sounds/feels better as you run through the gears cruising. Street raced some and I had about the same results with either. In this time frame (late 60's) I had a SBC, a 327, a great little screamer engine.

 

I'd use one of those low first gear 4 speeds with a nice, low compression, 454 with a stock cam. Strong torque right off idle that will climb any hill, power brakes that work, all on 87 octane...

 

My take on a street car is that it's a bit of a compromise in a lot of areas, but the overall outcome works well within your intended purpose. You can bench race any combo and point out that something else might be better under specific situations. But depending on rear tire size, I like the TKO with the 0.82 OD ratio and a 3.70 or 3.90 rear gear. It fits my driving style now that I am older and probably use more common sense on the road. But to put that in perspective, 45 years ago I drove a '55 Chevy with a 301 with the Z28 "off road only" cam, 4.11 or 4.56 rear depending on what one wasn't broke, and didn't spare the 4 speed. It was a great stop light / street race setup, but not a great extended highway car. So build what works for you now.

 

Respectfully disagree on the tranny but agree with your other choices. The problem with any trans choice is that when you use a certain transmission (any of them), if you go for the "wide ratio" version of that transmission, First gear will have far less torque capacity. Put it behind a torquey big block and you will be rebuilding it. Thats the beauty of the 5 speed TKO (or even a 6 speed). You can run a higher numerical rear end to get low end acceleration and still have a transmission whose first gear can take the torque. Then the overdrive more than offsets the low gear rear end for driving. You can buy the 4 speed more cheaply but after the first rebuild you will have as much in it as the five speed......and a certain amount of concern every time you want to tromp on the accelerator again. My build will be a modified 500 Caddy with ported heads, bigger valves, roller rockers and roller cam. Even with a 10/1 (or less) I should be able to make 500 hp easily and have a very wide torque band. I already have a new standard flywheel and plan to run either a TKO 600 or possibly even a 6 speed simply because it has even more torque capacity (700 I think).
I believe the key to building an enjoyable car that can be driven/hot rodded is getting a first gear that can stand up to the power and torque thrown at it........and still be able to drive on the x-way whenever needed. The five speed with a slightly higher geared rear (3:50 ?) (maybe even 3:25) would be my choice.

 

I went from a close ratio Muncie to a TKO600 in my 55. It is the best thing I have done to the car. I really like the 2.89 first gear. The Muncie took a lot of clutch slipping even with the 3.70 gear axle gears.

I went to 4.10 initially and with the .82 overdrive it was very nice on the back roads and the interstate. I ended up pulling the 4.10 mainly because the Detroit locker was driving me crazy. Now I am back with the 3.70 and it is still a great all around driving car.

 

I agree 100% thats why I only use the manually shifted version of the Turbo 400. I have had a 2.75 first gear made up for a couple of them, I used this with the 13" L-88 converter and the 2.56 rear end. I use the Hurst Autostick I to shift it, nothing like it. I had this in a 64 Bonneville with a 462. I could stay right up with the modern turbo cars without a sweat. I had one guy stop me at a red light wanting to know what my car had. After telling him he said you know we were going 155!!! lol

God bless you guys with clutches, thats too much work for me especially after 60 years of construction work haha.. Happy Motoring!

 

I want to thank everybody for their feedback...

I like manuals because they're just more fun to drive compared to an automatic. It looks like my best overall choice will probably be the 'road race' version of the TKO if I can find the money in the budget. 'Wide ratio' very close to the 'vintage' transmissions and not so tall OD that it could only be used at 60 mph or faster running a 3.5 to 3.7 rear gear. Living where I do, the majority of my driving is on country roads at speeds under 60 and this area of Washington is far from flat, so 'too much' OD is as bad as none at all. Fuel economy is important to me, but I do want this barge to be able to move. And distances enter into it also; if I go anywhere, it's a minimum of 30 miles, most car events I attend will be 80 to 200 or more miles round trip, I don't want to be 'that guy' who always needs to stop for gas...

 

Yeah, this is the way I've always looked at it.
Asphalt Angel says it the way I do.

Close ratio had similar rpm drops between each gear, and made it easier to stay in the narrow rpm range for peak power for best dragstrip results.
I always liked the wide ratio because the rpm spread was a bit wider, so it gave me what I wanted for a street hotrod- good take off, fun, plus decent highway manners.
To exaggerate the two choices in order to explain-
To me it was did I want 6 gears that were almost all the same, or did I want a good Low low and a good High high to make my car fun in everyday driving...

exaggerated yes, but the easiest way I know to describe it.


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