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Technical Need Advice from the Gear Setup Experts; Ring Gear Pattern

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by crazycasey, Apr 6, 2020.

  1. I’m well aware of the process, regardless two and half thou of play in a machined component is a lot.


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  2. 9562BE81-FDAC-435B-899A-DB4064FB2D02.jpeg

    So, I’ve only measured the non ring gear side so far, and based on reading Mark Williams’ website, the ring gear side is going to be worse. I can’t insert a feeler gauge with the race loose in the bore, but if I pull up on the race, I can squeeze the 0.0025” gauge in. Once it’s in, the race seems snug, but my understanding is that the fit should at least be 0.001” interference, so it’s more like 0.0035” off. Also, the race is snug at the parting line. If I pull the cap off, the race comes with it.

    That’s an intriguing idea. The aftermarket steel And aluminum caps do have 0.050” longer legs on them, so that they stay relatively concentric as you machine them down. I’m not sure how much of an issue it would be taking such a small amount off, though...

    Hmmm...makes sense. Pic above. I know that every connecting rod I have ever measured has been a little bit bigger at the parting line, even after a re-hone, but we’re only talking half a thou or so. Hmmm...

    So, I don’t have a dial bore gauge that’s short enough to measure inside these caps. That’s my first hurdle. I’m sure the caps have stretched. Possibly the lower half of the housing bore could also be slightly elongated, just from the movement of the carrier back and forth. I’m leaning towards the idea of throwing the Strange billet aluminum (I know) caps on it, because it’s a $100 fix and my little Chinese mill does great work on aluminum, but, back to the hurdle of not having a dial bore gauge that will fit within the housing...I can’t make it fit right if I can’t get an accurate measurement...
     
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  3. I sure wouldn’t feel warm and fuzzy with that... the difference in measurement at the parting line of split bearings is the insert is thinner there to compensate for bearing crush when you torque them, that’s what stops them from spinning.

    Your differential relies on the interference fit to keep the race from spinning. It’s really hard to say without seeing it in person but something is going on there...


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  4. Boneyard51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2017
    Posts: 6,431

    Boneyard51
    Member

    I think you are “ over thinking “ this! Lol All machining has tolerances. It is very important to keep these tolerances to a minimum in a 7500 rpm engine,because of the crazy forces at work in a reciprocating engine. The tolerances in a rear end can be a little greater. As Gimpy stated and as I have seen , some horrendous settings and clearances have been used in rear ends, with no apparent problems. Now mind you I’m not saying just throw it together, but like I mentioned in one of my earlier post, sometimes close counts.
    It reminds me of what my good friend told me one time, working on a truck body....” we’re not building a watch”! Lol.
    But , if you buy the aluminum caps and mill them, you are going to be in the same boat as taking a couple thousands off the original, actually in a worst deal with the aluminum, as you have to take .050 approximately, off.


    There is a very good possibility that the caps are egged shaped, due to stress, and taking .002+ off will actually make the bearing bore, more round, because you stated the clearance is at the center of the race, not at the parting line of the caps.
    Since you are planning on buy new caps, try removing a few thousands from the original caps, torque, and check roundness with a feeler gauge and a new bearing race.





    Bones
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2020
  5. I am a perpetual over-thinker, and I really appreciate all of you having patience with my barrage of questions. It’s funny because you and @57 Fargo are taking different approaches, and I find myself liking what you’re saying because it’s “easier”. Lol. But as you can also see, I don’t mind the extra work of “trying” to do something right, and I’m trying to learn...

    That said, I have an observation. It sounds like the aftermarket caps are straight where they’re 0.050” long, as they mention lining up the parting line before you torque the cap. My caps are already tight at the parting line, and if I take material off the bottom they will get even tighter there. The question is, will the cap stretch (re. deform) around the bearing race, or will it pinch the race at the parting line, and chew up the bearing?

    Like you said, though, there’s no harm in trying with the caps I have first, but I’m not 100% sure how to know what I’m aiming for? The feeler gauge method sounds ineffective because I shouldn’t be able to get a feeler gauge in there if I remove the material from the cap. I do have a set of snap gauges, but it’s hard to be dead consistent with those.

    I do think that if I can eliminate the free space, the sleeve retainer should handle the rest. Regarding your truck vs watch analogy, the part that makes me nervous about being close vs correct is that if I’m not close enough and this race spins and trashes the housing...it could eat the $600 carrier, the $200 gear set, and potentially mess up the $400 axles, too. The part that gives me confidence is that this was together for 90,000 miles, and there’s no evidence that anything was spinning...but maybe I just got lucky.
     
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  6. Boneyard51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2017
    Posts: 6,431

    Boneyard51
    Member

    I hear you Casey. I’m kinda a perfectionist at times myself, hence the quote by my good friend! But I have learned at my advanced age as to where to apply that perfectionist attitude and where to “ ballpark”! Lol
    As far as how the aftermarket caps are machined, I cannot help you, I have never used them.
    As far as the bearing spinning in the housing, I can see it taking the housing and the gears, but I think your carrier and axles should survive.
    As far as machining the caps, if you do not want to do them on your mill, like mentioned, get some emery paper taped to a piece of glass and take a little off. It will come off slow! But it will come off and even if you keep even pressure on the cap. Backyard machining. Lol

    I’m not sure how you are using your snap gauges, but here is how I use mine. I set my micrometer at the desired setting, or a thousands or two under. Then I take my snap gauge and set it inside my outside mike and line it up and lock it down.
    Now I use it as a “ go-no go” gauge. If it goes, I raise my outside mike one thousands and reset my snap gauge and check go-no go again. I continue until I have a no go.
    Trying to line up a snap gauge inside of a bore, perfectly, can be a chore! Just my way.
    To answer your question of cap stretch, yes it will. How much depends on many things. The bearing will “ crush” much less that the cap will stretch.






    Bones
     
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  7. When you set up your snap gauge as a go-no go, do you still insert it into the bore at an angle and then tilt it through the centered position (like you would with a dial bore gauge)? And what type of interference fit should I aim for? Or should I just aim for zero free space and let the sleeve retainer make up the interference?
     
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  8. Boneyard51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2017
    Posts: 6,431

    Boneyard51
    Member

    Yes, use your gauges to “ find” the largest part of the bore. It takes a feel, be gentle, never put any pressure on your gauges. Let the gauge find the biggest spot in the bore with a very little help. If it will “ rock” through the bore it is at least that big! Inside bores are difficult to measure, that is why they developed those bore gauges with the dial indicator on them. I still just use my inside mikes, double checking them with my outside mikes.
    As far as how much interference you need, it would only be a guess on my part, but I would say one to two thousands should do it.
    Remember bearing are put in to reduce friction! The rollers have less friction that the outside of the race, there fore it will tend to roll on the inside of the race vs the outside of the race in the housing. Think of how many wheel bearings you have pushed on a spindle, with 2/5 thousands clearance and never thought a thing about it! And they are millions upon millions of them going down the road with no problems!






    Bones
     
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  9. It’s definitely easier and may work fine, or it may not. Let us know which one.


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  10. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 23,233

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    What an conundrum!
     
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  11. Do either of you gents have thoughts about the aftermarket bearing caps? They are marketed as an upgrade and/or fix for worn caps. Both the Strange (aluminum @ ~$110/pr) and the Mark Williams (steel @ $90 each) are supposed to be stronger than the factory caps, and they are sized by milling the cap legs to final diameter (measured top to bottom only). They won’t be, by the nature of their design, perfectly concentric either, but they won’t be inclined to pinch the race at the parting line, like would be the case milling the stock caps, so hypothetically anyway, they would be closer to concentric. And again, they are marketed as an upgrade for improved housing strength.

    If I do it, which I’m feeling inclined to do, I’m thinking I would go the aluminum route, because they’re half the price and I can get them more quickly (Summit), and I’m hesitant to spend more because I suppose I’m not entirely confident that this fix will work, but I’m open to thoughts and/or suggestions. I’m inclined to the upgrade for the very reason that this failure occurred in the first place; this is a really heavy rig, with a high-torque motor, and now it’s getting deeper gears and bigger tires. Sure it’s possible that the axle may have just been built on a Friday, or it may have been perfect, and those caps just weren’t strong enough for how heavy the rig is. There’s just no way to know. And now I’ve got some time to play with it, because the custom axle shafts I ordered (that got here yesterday) were machined incorrectly and now they need to be sent back to the manufacturer to be fixed. This project has been a TOTAL conundrum @gimpyshotrods...
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2020
  12. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 23,233

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    If you are considering new caps, I would try milling the contact surface, of the current caps, to tighten them up, and see how that goes. You have little to lose.

    Sneak up on it, slowly.
     
  13. Looking at your pic,,,,where you have the feeler inserted at 6 o’clock,,,,,it looks like there is a fairly large gap at 3 o’clock .
    Maybe it is an optical illusion,,,,but the race doesn’t seem to be nesting well in the cap .
    If you can pull up the race and insert a feeler,,,I’ll bet it is more loose than .0035 .
    Since these are new bearings and races,,they are machined correctly,,,right ?

    And if the races or bearings are not seated correctly,,,the pattern will never be right,,,no matter what .

    Have you fitted the race in the housing bore without the cap on ,,,it shouldn’t be loose .
    Maybe you do have a housing issue,,,but,,,if it was good before,,,I would suspect the replacement parts first .

    Also,,,what is your intended use of the Dana ,,grocery getter,,,,4 WD,,,,,rock climber,,,,,drag racing ?
    That will dictate to an extent on how much money should be invested,,,,and how tight the tolerance should be ,,,,and how much to worry about this issue .

    I personally love Mark Williams axle components,,,,,pricey,,,but great quality .

    I’m with the other guys on most of this,,,,,check it good,,,,and dress the caps down,,,,you have nothing to lose really .
    Make certain that the housing has no burrs holding anything up also,,,,,mic those races too .

    Tommy
     
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  14. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 23,233

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I have a couple of questions, which might sound dumb.

    Are you certain that these caps are from this housing?

    Are you sure that you have them on the correct sides?
     
  15. Tommy, you’re right about the void at 3 o’clock and there’s one at 9 o’ clock too. 9 o’ clock is worse, and it’s about 0.003” there. I’ve got to get my snap gauges out and measure these bores, and the bearing races (new NTN made in USA) more thoroughly to try and figure out what all is going on here. Is it ok to edge-break the parting line with a file. There is maybe the slightest little burr there; I doubt it’s my issue, but it can’t hurt to address it, if that’s an acceptable procedure.

    No I am not 100% certain, but they have punch marks that match the cover rail, so...probably? And I DO have them matched to their marks. The caps actually fit the races fairly snugly, the slop is in the housing. I think it left the factory on the loose side and got beat up over 90,000 miles. Also a point of interest is that the open carrier is shorter than my Detroit TrueTrac, so I cannot use the preload spacers that we’re in this housing when I took it apart. The bore is beat up where those spacers lived; the first 0.150” of the housing bore (closest to the axle tube). The bore seems to be a bit tighter towards the inside, right up until the step. I mean, I guess I could have the carrier turned down, but I don’t want to mess with that...
     
  16. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 23,233

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Is there something that makes this housing unique enough that you cannot replace it?
     
  17. Boneyard51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2017
    Posts: 6,431

    Boneyard51
    Member

    To answer you question, yes go ahead and edge brake the edges. Just not more than necessary. We use to call that “ deburring” lol. All edges that left our machine shop were deburred.





    Bones
     
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  18. I’m with Gimpy, what about finding another housing in a salvage yard? I’ve never priced them, or looked for an Aftermarket Dana housing(9 inch guy, myself) but does anyone make a new housing for this?


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  19. If this is an upgrade because of more power and bigger tires, then find a housing. If the case can move in the housing it will fail again.

    When it does it will need more than a housing.


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  20. They’re not super rare, but it is a full-float ABS housing that ran for about four years in one-ton Ford vans, so it’s not super common, and the full-float 60’s tend to fetch a premium, anyway. It’d probably be ~$300 from a wrecking yard, and there’s always a chance the axle I get won’t be any better...especially considering this axle had 90k on it, and anything I find in a yard is going to be 2-3x that. I have a theory that Dana stuff in the late 1990’s to early 2000’s wasn’t made as well as the old stuff, but that’s just a theory.

    Also, between cleaning, prepping, and POR-15’ing this one and setting up the gears, I’ve probably got about 10 hours into this housing, and another $100 in bearings that, at this point, will probably get ruined removing them. So, I have a somewhat vested interest in making this one work, unless it’s just a lost cause.
     
  21. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 23,233

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    You need a set of set-up bearings.
     
  22. It is the stock axle for the vehicle. It has the same amount of power, but it will have bigger tires. See previous post for reasons for wanting to salvage this housing. Also, it never did fail...I mean, maybe it was about to, but it didn’t...it didn’t even make noise.

    The two camps here seem to be surface my existing main caps and run it, or S-can the whole housing and start over. Nobody seems to like the idea of the replacement main caps that are marketed for fixing a loose carrier bearing bore (among other things)?
     
  23. I have a set, but I spent a bunch of time chasing my tail because the setup bearings that had a nice slip fit in the front Dana 60 housing were sloppy in this housing. I’ve since final installed the pinion in new bearings with sleeve retainer, pressed new bearings on the carrier, and had it all together with a beautiful pattern, until I pulled it one last time to make sure the bearing caps were snug...

    It’s also only the second set of gears I have ever attempted.
     
  24. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 23,233

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Don't get discouraged. This housing is (or should be) and anomaly.
     
  25. Casey,

    The races are loose in the housing bores,,,,,not the caps ,,,right ?
    Replacing the caps won’t solve the housing bore .

    Do you have any pics of the bores without the races in place ?

    Also,,,,it’s a Dana from a 1 ton Ford van .
    At one time didn’t Dana have some 60 parts that did not interchange between makes ?
    I only have experience with Mopar Dana’s,,,,,but if I remember correctly,,,it seems there was some difference ?

    Hey Fargo,,,,,,do you recall any details about this,,,,or am I in a delusional state ?

    Tommy
     
  26. The Dana 60’s used in mopar cars are semi floating, aside from that I’m not sure, I’ve never worked on one, the mopar truck 60’s are the same as any other I have seen


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  27. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 23,233

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    There was a Dana 61. It had a different pinion offset. Not sure about the other parts.

    It will say 61 on the housing rib.
     
  28. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 23,233

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Is his a metric 8-lug pattern, or inch? I know the vans changed later, but do not know when.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2020
  29. Ericnova72
    Joined: May 1, 2007
    Posts: 589

    Ericnova72
    Member
    from Michigan

    If you do decide to take some off the cap mating surface, I did a quick rough trig calculation, if you remove .005" from the face of the cap legs, the bore width closes up .00016" at the mating face....not enough to even be concerned with in this case.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2020
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  30. Ericnova72
    Joined: May 1, 2007
    Posts: 589

    Ericnova72
    Member
    from Michigan

    Mopar car housing also have cast in provision for a pinion snubber mount.

    I've taken full floating Dana 60 housings from both Ford trucks and Dodge trucks, chopped off the full float ends and shorten the tubes, then add Big Ford type 9" housing ends to allow easy sourcing brake options and axle options for use under drag cars.
    Only thing that ever bit me was not knowing that there exists a Dana 61, made for the use of gearing lower than 3.54, like 3.08's...nearly the same as Dana 60 but carrier offset is machined different in the housing and Dana 60 spool won't work. Moser said nobody makes any aftermarket parts for the 61.
    Had one supplied by a customer and had it all narrowed up, 4-link brackets and adjustable shock mounts for coil-overs welded on, and starting to assemble it before we discovered it was a 61....easy ID tip is the casting rail around the cover looks 1.0+" thick from the outside. Came from an early 80's Ford 1-ton
     

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