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Technical Going to get to the bottom of this damed high RPM miss.

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by 34Larry, Apr 19, 2020.

  1. 34Larry
    Joined: Apr 25, 2011
    Posts: 1,701

    34Larry
    Member

    Big thankyou to all that wished me a HBD, it surly was.
    Thanks also for all the suggestions. This miss has been going on since late summer of last year. I have replaced the entire ignition system, wires, coil, plugs, cap, resistor, everything. Like have said it starts and runs just fine. Under hard load it cries, help me, help me! This is a '55 331 Hemi, isky cam, dual quads, other wise pretty much stock.
    So in-between power washing my driveway(s) side walks and front of the house yesterday,
    I was able to get the intake off, plugs out, and the valley cover. WHOA!!!!!!!!!! says me. Folded so neatly and oil soaked beyond belief is a shop rag I left in the valley last time I had it down this far. There has been a persistent lifter clatter at times at start up that always stopped after warm up, now I know why. That rag was blocking oil return and run down, which I believe could have something to do with the higher RPM miss and it WILL BE investigated. (What dumb ass would button up the valley with the valley cover and leave a shop rag in there)…...aaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh ME!
    I figured on going through the valve lash anyway, which is one task I just hate. The only way I know how to accomplish that is to: hand turn it over until #1 is at TDC, making sure both valves are closed, the rotor is pointed a #1, check to see that the lash is at zero and move on by hand turning it through the firing order doing the same until #8 is complete. I use a 1/4 rod to indicate when the piston has reached TDC to begin this process. I check each cylinders rotor position also before checking the lash.
    Not sure this the way it is done, but it has worked for me through the years. My closes friend the ex high school auto shop teah. says that's the hard way, says (2) cylinders can be done at once, but his directions fall on this old forgetful brain, and I'm just to embarrassed to say, ah...……..huh??
    I'll do my best to keep all who are interested up to date. Now it off to call Debra at Hot Heads, tell her I ordered the wrong intake gaskets thinking that my heads had the larger of the two carb warm up ports, when it dose not, and order another pair. Shit men if you can prevent getting old, I highly suggest it.:eek: o_O:rolleyes:
     
    mctim64, seb fontana, Petejoe and 5 others like this.
  2. 41 GMC K-18
    Joined: Jun 27, 2019
    Posts: 3,561

    41 GMC K-18
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Perfection cannot be rushed.
    PARK BENCH.jpg
     
  3. catdad49
    Joined: Sep 25, 2005
    Posts: 6,397

    catdad49
    Member

    Wow, I think you might be on to something! Good Luck.
     
    loudbang and Blue One like this.
  4. 34Larry
    Joined: Apr 25, 2011
    Posts: 1,701

    34Larry
    Member

    So mission accomplished the high rpm miss has left the building. Do not know exactly what was the cause but it is not living in my motor as of yesterday afternoon.
    I'll relate what I did. I posted that I had gone through the whole ignition system from stem to stern replacing coil, plugs, plug wires before starting the quest to de-bug this and that I was going to find it by going inside at least down to the removing the intake, replacing the gasket, going through the lifters and checking every nut and bolt.
    I've always had trouble setting the preload and lash on the lifters, I just do not have the "touch" I guess.
    One issue I found was that the distributor was not in right according to the '55 Motors manual. When the rotor was pointing to #1 it was two positions off counter clockwise according to the diagram showing in the book. It of course was wired to the plugs ok that way, and that should not have made the difference (and didn't), but as you guys all know, make it like the book then start again. So I pulled it, moved the drive gear to get it to put the rotor per the book, put it back in and then went to the lifters. My bud Jim gave me a hand with the lifters. He as I have said in previous posts was the local high school auto shop teacher here, working in dealerships of all brands during the summer months, so he knows his stuff.
    He wrote down the firing order 1-8-4-3-6-7-5-2, then wrote down the left bank 1-3-5-7 putting the right bank numbers down right under the left bank numbers, ………………….2-4-6-8, then turned it over until the #2 exhaust was just coming open. #1 lifters were on the rock as he called it, (side opposite the cam lobe) or something ling that. Still a slight bit confusing for this old tired bran, but they work like intended so I'm happy. That done he returned to finishing the '48 Olds fast back he's restored, and his '54 Bel Air with all vette chassis and running gear project.
    I continued on installing a new Hot Rod Innovations Throttle Return Spring Kits HRI-EDE-S-LK, from Summit, not my carb here but the spring set up only'',
    [​IMG]because I was afraid of my single spring stretched out to a hole in the intake failing out on the road someplace. Putting the distributor cap back on and moving the plug wires to the new locations because of the repositioning of the dizzy, (as referred to here at times)after reinstalling the plugs, wire covers etc. Put in the coolant and fired it up.
    It started right up, I let her run until 180 deg. was reached then slowly picked up the RPMS until it was running at 4000, kept it at that, then went to 5,000, goosed it up to 6,000 and promptly lost the lower radiator hose, loosing 20 bucks worth the antifreeze all over my drive way. But hey no miss, and no lifter clatter.
    Now that was yesterday. I've not been out yet today to get the hose back on and can't vouch for what might be in the wings waiting but I'm on my way after lunch to get that done and put the timing light on it. So for now I can say it has paid off, and if any thing happens different I'll post what.
    Here's a couple of shots of it just for s & g's.
    May #1.jpg May #3.jpg
     
  5. 34Larry
    Joined: Apr 25, 2011
    Posts: 1,701

    34Larry
    Member

  6. Pretty little mill!
     
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  7. 34Larry
    Joined: Apr 25, 2011
    Posts: 1,701

    34Larry
    Member

    So I sure find this to be an odd place at times. Back on 4/19 with the first post there was a lot of input.
    Guys chipped in with a lot of support with some wanting to know what I found and also some wanted to know when I was successful. So I post my results and no one except one person who is here in my home town reply's. Guess I shouldn't have bothered to take the pic's and the time.:confused::confused::confused:
     
    firstinsteele likes this.
  8. onekarnut
    Joined: Jan 4, 2012
    Posts: 18

    onekarnut
    Member

    Larry
    It was in the water our papa`s drank that gave us this illness called old car disease. I am also 81 and have the same sickness and the same results you described. Wouldn`t want it any other way. Happy birth day..
    onekarnut{old} from Texas
     
    loudbang likes this.

  9. Well, hells bells, Larry give us time. I could not see the keyboard after staring at those pics.
    So it was the lifter lash adjustment?

    Ben
     
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  10. Doublepumper
    Joined: Jun 26, 2016
    Posts: 1,534

    Doublepumper
    Member
    from WA-OR, USA

    Glad you caught the problem...whatever it was.
    Speaking for myself, I appreciate it when guys take the time to update a thread with the outcome.
    Especially so when there's pics of Hemi's...:D
     
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  11. seb fontana
    Joined: Sep 1, 2005
    Posts: 8,442

    seb fontana
    Member
    from ct

    ""So I sure find this to be an odd place at times"" Yep. You as old as my brother, 1o years ahead of me. Happy B'day by the way. So new coolant fixed the problem? o_O:)
     
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  12. 34Larry
    Joined: Apr 25, 2011
    Posts: 1,701

    34Larry
    Member

    My best guess it was lifter(s) coupled with the distributor being off by (2) rotor positions counter clock wise.
    Something else I didn't mention that I did was install an in line fuel pressure valve. I don't think that had anything to do with the miss, but it was running 7lbs pressure, now I have it down to 5.5 lbs. and it runs fine at that and no gas smell like it did at 7lbs. Next is getting out on the road to see how she pulls. I've been wanting to name it and after watching the video of the rolling bones group run at Muroc dry lake here this morning and being as how this is the former famous Northern Star, I'm thinking, "NS Bones".
     
  13. Come on man,,,
    That really hurts coming from you. :D:p

    We’ve ( at least I do) got to know how it does under a load. Winging 6000 rpm in the driveway and blowing the radiator hose off don’t really count as successful but it is progress.
     
  14. 34Larry
    Joined: Apr 25, 2011
    Posts: 1,701

    34Larry
    Member

    31 sorry to disappoint you. Yes I agree about being on the road and under load. Rain showers and the threat of downpour keeps me in the drive way under Washington law. Looks to be the same all week also so I just have to wait. I have a couple of places to touch up, a new gallon of Hot Rod black, my heater gets it nice and toasty in there so that and running timing light on it will keep me occupied until I can put-er-on-the-road.
     
    31Vicky with a hemi and loudbang like this.
  15. It’s not disappointing,,,
    You seemed to feel let down by your HAMB brothers. Like we disappointed you by not joining in on the victory dance.
     
    firstinsteele likes this.
  16. Ebbsspeed
    Joined: Nov 11, 2005
    Posts: 6,250

    Ebbsspeed
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    @34Larry He may know his stuff, but if that's the firing order he wrote down, well, that's some stuff he doesn't know. Swap the 5 and 7 around. If that's how the plug wires are connected then you will be a lot closer to solving your miss. Also, you might want to re-visit the valve adjustment on those two if he had the firing order wrong.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2020
  17. 34Larry
    Joined: Apr 25, 2011
    Posts: 1,701

    34Larry
    Member

    UPDATE
    I penned this post originally on 4/19/20, today is 7/4/20 and perseverance has paid off, (even with a moment of expiration thrown in), the miss has been repaired HOPEFULLY !!!!!!!!!!!!. Some place I believe I posted that putting on Jim's antique restored Sun Machine it showed a bad module was the cause. This was a Hot Heads distributor and module I originally installed when putting the engine in the chassis way back in 2003. They no longer offer that, and it served me well for a long time. It was a modified Duster I believe. I bit the expensive bullet, buying and installing a MSD plug and play distributor, and wires. Had quite a time with the boots which I posted about and troubles with positioning of the vac. advance because of the length of the dual quad intake. Jim as usual was there to give me a hand with all that and finally after much repositoning to find the sweet spot with adjusting, found the right placing by advancing the a tooth at time, it is now running like a fine swiss watch. On the road it performs like a HEMI ought to and so finally after almost 3 months, it appears that I just might have solved that #@#$%^& miss. However............I have traveled this road before in those months and as 31vicky has reminded me, and as Yogi said, "It ain't over till its over"
    My goal was to have it 100% operational before Puyallup Goodguys which was scheduled 7/24-7/26. Now from all I've been able to ascertain, that ain't a gonna happen. Shit...……………..
    But at the very least, I have reafirmed in my small mind that once again, hard work, sleepleness from unsolve issues, perserverence and cubic $$$$$$$$$$$$ can fix any F*&^%$$ thing mostly.






     
  18. woodbutcher
    Joined: Apr 25, 2012
    Posts: 3,310

    woodbutcher
    Member

    :D Well,a bit late to the party,but here`s wishing you a Happy Birthday.May you have many more healthy,happy,safe and prosperous ones.
    Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
    Leo
     
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  19. 34Larry
    Joined: Apr 25, 2011
    Posts: 1,701

    34Larry
    Member

    Thanks Leo.
     
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  20. 34Larry
    Joined: Apr 25, 2011
    Posts: 1,701

    34Larry
    Member

    How does it go? Something like, "The best laid plans of mice and men...……...
    Happy as a lark, I went for a short little run down to the beach this afternoon.
    Got into it some at couple of stop lights and then comes the tick, tick, tick, lifter, on
    #2 and loud. Its been stubborn when starting for a long time but always pumps up and
    runs good. This time it isn't shutting up, I figure its gone and needs replacing. So my
    joy turned to disgust, disappointment and let down.
    Plan...………………... Tare it down, replace all lifters, take heads in for freshening up, reassemble and then SELL. Not looking to get what I will have in it at that time but what ever it will bring to bank for my wife's future with out me. :eek::)
     
  21. PhilA
    Joined: Sep 6, 2018
    Posts: 2,061

    PhilA
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    1. Hydro Tech

    Lock it in the garage, walk away for a few days then come back to it with a bit of hindsight. If it's just a lazy lifter between you and enjoying it then maybe it deserves a second (third, fourth, fifth- I lost count) chance?

    Or at least in a week or so you'll know that it leaving is its future. Be a shame to, it's real nice to look at.

    Phil
     
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  22. 34Larry
    Joined: Apr 25, 2011
    Posts: 1,701

    34Larry
    Member

    Sure do appreciate the complement Phil. I have worked hard to get it where it is in looks and mechanical condition and spent way more than I should since 1995, and its a great feeling when a fellow "car guy" also appreciates what has been a challenge, and tons of fun and disappointing also.:)
    I'll take your welcomed advise and walk away for a while, get busy on some home projects that aren't really necessary but will enhance the place and make Mom happy. I'll also call in my guru buddy, Jim and ask his advise. As I pen this this morning I'm truly sick and tired of continually having another issue crop up.
    If I decide to keep it I'm taking it down to bare block, replacing the cam and lifters, pulling the pistons, checking the bore, if its okay cleaning it up to be acceptable for re-ringed pistons, and reassembling the rest while checking every single nut/bolt/part for the correct spec's.
    The only issue I am leery of is the block needing boiling and boring as I don't want to remove it from the chassis, and I am not going to do that. If push comes to shove I'll do the best I can in that aspect with what its is and what I have, and call it good enough. BUT I will inform the next keeper of what I have done, either through word of mouth or a written note kept in the glove box. This will be another challenge in a long line of such for me at todays age of 81 with health issues galore. Hopefully I accomplish this IF started before the grim guy comes around.
    I was told this motor had been completely gone through, offered a hand full of receipts and talked supposedly by phone with the Chevy dealer mechanic that did it. I strongly suspect that was a F'n lie as so much of this hobby has with in it. :eek:
    I am going to leave this where it is now and not posting anymore about this as it has become very, very embarrassing and not at all how I have gone about doing things in my life. If and when I do make it through and accomplish what I plan, then and only then will I once again post the results of the rebuild. :)………………….to be continued eventually I hope.
     
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  23. PhilA
    Joined: Sep 6, 2018
    Posts: 2,061

    PhilA
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    1. Hydro Tech

    Nah, as your quote made me smile that you're still on this side of the grass- get it going, fix that small item and enjoy it until it breaks again.
    I'm sure I speak for everybody when I say I have owned cars (and still do) that just plain don't want to be fixed or stay fixed.
    I will roll back to an old adage though- a car advertised as "owned by a mechanic" is always going to be fraught with trouble because by the time said mechanic has finished working on Joe Public's cars he has no energy or desire to do his own vehicle right.
    Therefore, just remedy what was done previously without driving yourself crazy and go out and enjoy it (or pass it on and take up another hobby, whatever floats your boat).

    I always find a week or two of retrospect puts the rose tinted glasses back on and in the background the mind never stops milling over what's actually wrong and what needs to be done to fix.

    You know this. Why are you listening to a lecture from a youngster?! Haha

    Phil
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2020
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  24. 34Larry
    Joined: Apr 25, 2011
    Posts: 1,701

    34Larry
    Member

    Well cause you give good advise and old guys don't know it all.
     
  25. BamaMav
    Joined: Jun 19, 2011
    Posts: 6,707

    BamaMav
    Member
    from Berry, AL

    Take a break Larry, then go back to it with a clear mind and a plan. We all get disillusioned from time to time. I went to the trouble to change mine from a Chevy engine to a Ford one, got it together, then found out my supposed good transmission was junk. Got it tore apart, then this virus crap hit, so I’ve been sitting on my money instead of getting it rebuilt. Turned my attention to other things for now, I’ll get back to the car soon. It’s not costing anything but the insurance, so it can sit.....
     
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  26. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 11,459

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    If time and health issues are slowing you down Larry you could take the option of pulling the engine out and sending it out for a proper rebuild by a pro, a reputable builder that has experience with those engines.

    I know that @mctim64 (Tim Mcmaster) at Hanford auto is great with Y blocks and other early engines, not sure about the Hemis.

    He has a really neat old style shop and he builds good engines.

    It’s only money and as you know it won’t be going with you when it comes to that.

    If you can get a proper build done then you can probably get the car back together and enjoy it yourself for a little while longer.

    And you’ll feel better about the whole thing.
     
    loudbang likes this.
  27. Elcohaulic
    Joined: Dec 27, 2017
    Posts: 2,212

    Elcohaulic

    I'd put a single points distributor in and have it triggering a CD box. That is the best ignition I have ever had..
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2020
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