Register now to get rid of these ads!

Technical Need Advice from the Gear Setup Experts; Ring Gear Pattern

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by crazycasey, Apr 6, 2020.

  1. Boneyard51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2017
    Posts: 6,431

    Boneyard51
    Member

    Don’t know if this will answer your question, but on the Dana type rear ends, close counts for me! Mainly due to the difficulty of changing the settings! I did a rear end on an OT 2000 Ford Pickup, that had NO shims anywhere! Now mind you this rear end begin to make enough noise I had to fix it. The bearings were wore enough to let the gears get out of setting by many thousands of an inch. So I’m sure it impacted the wear pattern. I just put new bearings in and since there were no shims to move, I just stuck the new bearings in there! The rear end is still on the road today at close to 300,000 miles, no problem!
    Now, when I do a Ford nine inch, it’s so easy to change all settings, I spend extra time to get the best pattern possible.
    Depends , mainly, on how much effort you want to put in to changing the setting on those Dana type rear ends. Also pressing bearings on and off of the carrier/ pinion/ housing many times could cause a problem in it self, if you don’t have a set of set up bearings. Just my experiences.










    Bones
     
    crazycasey likes this.
  2. To me it depends on what you are using it for? Being a Dana 60 I’m assuming a fair amount of load? Having it run off the edge of the tooth concerns me then.

    I may have been unclear with backlash, changing back lash will move the pattern horizontally across the pitch line so less backlash equals closer to the toe, more backlash is out to the heel, you certainly do not want to move the pinion any further away from the ring gear, that will move it up on the face even more, pinion depth will move the pattern diagonally from heel face to toe flank, hence why I say I don’t think you can get a good pattern out of that gear set. I would want a different set, call them and see what they have to say.

    the reality is you are correct that some gear sets the pattern is ugly and they run just fine, but if you paid good money for a new set then you should be able to get a better pattern than that.

    there is on major gear manufacturer that says as long as the pattern doesn’t run of the edge of a tooth it’s good regardless of what it looks like, yours doesn’t even meet that loose criteria
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2020
    crazycasey likes this.
  3. As I’m just learning, I want to put the extra work in to get this thing as close as possible...

    I am using setup bearings, so that makes it a bit easier.
     
    Boneyard51 likes this.
  4. So, I tried moving the pinion out 0.003” (away from the ring gear), reset backlash, and the pattern was so high on the tooth that it barely registered. I ran backlash all the way down to 0.004” which is the low end of the spec, and it was still terrible. And then I went the other way, moving the pinion in 0.004” (towards the ring gear) more than it was in the first pictures. The pattern moved, predictably, a bit lower on the tooth (root), but also towards the toe.

    D203B49E-8FF1-44C2-88EB-9CE7C65EB6A4.jpeg

    F8F3EBFE-81ED-4324-82DB-39A732EC0558.jpeg

    It’s really hard to tell, as I’m still such a novice, but it really doesn’t look like it’s running off the face of the tooth anymore, but I think that it IS running off the toe just barely (see the dark spot right on the edge of the toe). Is that any “better”, or am I just chasing my tail. Should I try anything else from here?
     
  5. Well,,,being that this is really giving trouble,,,you might have to check closer .
    Since this is a completely different rear end,,,,,and I see a reluctor ring on the carrier,,,,are you certain the ring gear is seated completely flat on the carrier ?
    If the ring is not seated flat,,,depending on where you check the settings on the perimeter,,,it will act crazy like you see here .
    You might remove the gear and stone the mating surface,,,make certain no burrs are present .

    It’s just an idea .

    Tommy
     
  6. Kevin Ardinger
    Joined: Aug 31, 2019
    Posts: 775

    Kevin Ardinger
    Member

    Looks like the pinion needs to move out to me about .003-.005. Put the backlash to .007-.010. That would be my move if I were doing it.


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2020
  7. Boneyard51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2017
    Posts: 6,431

    Boneyard51
    Member

    Yep, that’s the good thing about a hobby, you can take your time and do it to perfection, even if it means doing it over and over!
    If your putting beans on the table, you have to get the job out the door for the next one! And sometimes that perfect pattern is hard to achieve! Sometimes it is near impossible, sometimes it falls right in your lap. I did a lot over the years, but they were scattered. I always layed my Motors manual out there and followed the instructions. I never trusted my memory!








    Bones
     
    pitman and Desoto291Hemi like this.
  8.  
    Boneyard51 likes this.
  9. Tommy,

    I surfaced the ring gear before I started, and it seated fully without any real tension (the last one was like that too). And I’m checking pattern and backlash in three places without any difference...

    I’m totally lost, because this thing is NOT behaving normally. I wanted to see what happened if I added another 0.005” of shim to the pinion (closer to the ring gear), so now it’s 0.010” more than the first pics, and I’ve got backlash as loose as I dare, and it looks like this:

    5F0C77D9-16E4-4C30-B674-A4C1969A4FC3.jpeg

    73CD0436-412D-4849-B460-BF4F4DCCB8D4.jpeg
     
  10. Leave it alone. That’ll be fine.


    Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
     
    Mark Yac likes this.
  11. Ericnova72
    Joined: May 1, 2007
    Posts: 589

    Ericnova72
    Member
    from Michigan

    This link may be of particular interest to you on this set of gears.... a lot of people don't know about this difference in how gears are machined and how it effects pattern and set-up. Difference between face-milled vs face hobbed manufacturing style
    Dana-Spicer info on Two-cut Vs Five-cut gear patterns.
    https://www.differentials.com/two-cut-vs-five-cut-gears/
     
  12. deathrowdave
    Joined: May 27, 2014
    Posts: 3,509

    deathrowdave
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from NKy

    Dana’s are a tuff bird to cage . I don’t know it you are loading the gears to check the pattern , I suspect you are , but this will seriously change the pattern you are getting . Both look great to me if they were marker loaded . Bones , I’m with you on close counts when dealin inside a Dana !
     
    Boneyard51 likes this.
  13. Kevin Ardinger
    Joined: Aug 31, 2019
    Posts: 775

    Kevin Ardinger
    Member

    Those last pics look good to me
     
  14. Boneyard51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2017
    Posts: 6,431

    Boneyard51
    Member

    Like said, both look “ close enough “ . I always try to set my back lash as small as possible, because it will get larger as the bearings wear in. Also I place the pinion as close to ring gear as the pattern will allow because as those bearing wear in the pinion will move slightly away from the ring gear. Just food for though.
    Since you mentioned you are learning about gear patterns, maybe you should acquire a nine inch Ford to play with. You and adjust those both ways in a matter of seconds. Your learning curve will be substantially sharper!






    Bones
     
    Truckdoctor Andy likes this.
  15. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 23,233

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    One thing in common that I have noticed with a number of different axles, be they Dana/Spicer, Eaton, AAM, GM, Sterling, and others, is additive tolerance issues.

    Every machined surface has a tolerance to which it has been machined, meaning that they are not exact. This is the case on every machined part.

    When you combine all of the deviations from exact, you can end up needing to add, or subtract shims, where you did not expect to, or end up having to compensate for things like pinion depth, depending on your measurement method.

    I have even found pinion bearings, the one behind the pinion head, that have obviously been ground, at the factory, to correct a alignment issue. It is cheaper to grind a bearing, than it is to re-machine, or discard a housing.

    As others have said, get it as close as you can. After all, in many cases, that is what the OEM did.
     
  16. On Dana’s they mark the pinion head for the nominal installed height, and it’s a VERY precise number, like the ‘minus 0.001”’ marking on this pinion (when compared to the one I removed)...they even have a fancy chart for determining where to set your pinion based on the markings of the new pinion and the one you removed.
    In reality, this one wants to be 0.014” further in than the one I removed, and I would guess that that axle had never been apart based on the mileage, condition of the gear oil, gears, and bearings, etc. So I find it laughable that they go to the trouble to provide a marking on the damn pinion at all if your final results will be nowhere near the starting point. The previous axle ended up 0.005” further in than the marking suggested, and it had for sure never been apart. Why they don’t just tell you to start with the previous shim pack and adjust from there utterly baffles me...
     
  17. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 23,233

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I have now re-geared over 200 Dana-Spicer axles, from D30 to S135, and every common model in-between.

    I have seen every example of a factory hack that they probably did, to make a functional axle.

    I have found the markings on the pinion head to be wrong enough times that I think that they are marked first, before they are assembled.

    On a positive note, I have seen this same span of axles set up in all manner of ways that would be considered to be hella wrong, and are at the 100,000 - 200,000+ mile mark, with no apparent issues, just in need of a re-gear, for taller tires.
     
  18. Whelp, if I got to THIS much trouble then the damned thing ought to last FOREVER!!!
     
    Boneyard51 and gimpyshotrods like this.
  19. Lol,,,don’t get discouraged,,,it’s not really a science .
    Like Gimpy said,,,,they are sometimes all over the place from the factory .
    Remember,,these things are made by a human being,,,that may,,or may not really be totally on top of their game,,,,,when a new person is hired,,there is always a learning curve .
    I’m certain some marginal pieces get shipped out .
    I’m sure it will be fine .

    And don’t think that all the numbers are dead on .
    Like you said,,,the nominal installed height,,,,was a very precise number .
    Doesn’t “nominal “ mean the middle of the spec,,,,?

    Also,,,,sometimes they are set perfectly by the book and still howl like a Banshee .
    You’re doing great,,,don’t sweat it .

    Tommy
     
    Boneyard51 and crazycasey like this.
  20. Ok, so, I’m still tinkering on this thing, just in the interest of learning...

    I decided that I need to throw out everything I did yesterday, because I wasn’t putting enough drag on the carrier as I was spinning the gears, and when I started doing that, the patterns changed a LOT.

    After about a half-dozen times in and out, I have the following pair of patterns that I feel are both pretty close. They are both with the same pinion height, and one is with loose backlash, and one is with tight backlash (both ends of the spec). What is driving me nuts is that no matter what I do I can’t seem to get the pattern further down the tooth (face to root). At one point I added another 0.003” shim to the pinion, and it still seemed to ride high on the tooth, but went quite a bit further to the heel.

    So my question is, should I try another thou on the pinion, trying to keep the backlash tight? Or should I just run the looser of these two backlash settings leaving the pinion where it is, and not worry that the pattern is high?

    Oh, and for what it’s worth, I’m pretty sure these are Face-Hobbed gears, versus Face-Milled. The toe side of the tooth IS shorter than than heel side, but only by about 0.010”...that would explain why increasing the pinion height is pushing the pattern towards the heel instead of pulling it towards the toe. Thanks to @Ericnova72 for setting me straight on that.

    Here are the pics!

    733B16CF-F952-4FBD-8E5C-12BA0C59C720.jpeg

    6532BB27-721B-4888-B01B-84CD97779A8C.jpeg

    78D56DF1-583D-4278-BE26-E4409641CAF3.jpeg

    512409EA-7C0F-421A-9397-88682257A96E.jpeg
     
    Boneyard51 likes this.
  21. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 23,233

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Run the backlash tight, double-check the torque on all of the bolts.

    Finish it up and stop worrying. You did good.
     
    Boneyard51 and Truckdoctor Andy like this.
  22. Hey there @gimpyshotrods, @Boneyard51, @Desoto291Hemi, and @57 Fargo, you guys have all been so helpful, I’m hoping I can reach out to any/all of you for a bit more advice.

    So, this axles still not together...

    I went to start final assembly on it, and when I went to press in my inner pinion race, it went it with the lightest tap of my hammer. There’s no indication that ANYTHING on this axle spun, BUT, I’ve never seen blacker gear oil in an axle, and I suspect it had a hard life.

    Anyway, the bearing race wasn’t loose, and it was too tight to slip fit, but it wasn’t interference fit either. After much deliberation, I decided to assemble BOTH pinion races with Permatex High Temp Sleeve Retainer, and after it cured, I ran my pattern again and it was improved dramatically! I should also say that I opted to not center punch the housing bore, for something that was only lightly worn, they did not recommend it.

    So, tonight I go to press the bearings onto the carrier, and I decide just for kicks to torque the races into the caps and make sure they don’t move around. And sure enough, they’re not tight either. In fact, if I pull up on the bearing race, I can fit a 0.0025” feeler gauge under neath it...

    So, either I scrap everything, and start over with a new housing, or I try the sleeve retainer on the carrier bearings as well. Permatex swears that stuff will make a slip fit part stronger than an interference fit. Does anybody care to weigh in here? I’ve got a fair amount of time and money into this housing already, I’d hate to turn back now...
     
  23. That explains why the pattern didn’t behave as expected, I’m ok with the fix for the pinion bearings, I’ve done it before successfully, the case bearings being loose I have concerns about, if there is 2.5 thou space, that’s a lot...


    Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
     
    crazycasey likes this.
  24. The part that gets me is that I was driving this thing before I tore it down. I’ve tried to be quiet about it, because this is an OT vehicle, but it’s a diesel van, and granted, the diesel is loud, but I never heard any sort of noise out of the rear axle...

    After a little bit of research, it looks like both Mark Williams and Strange make replacement caps that you can mill to fit. Guess that’s my answer...
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2020
  25. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 23,233

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I had a D60 in the rear of my 4x4 rig. when I did the R&P, it was much as yours is. I used sleeve retainer on it.

    I sold it with 160,000 miles on that gear set, having has no issues.

    Your housing sounds like it has issues.
     
  26. Did you use sleeve retainer on the carrier bearings too?
     
  27. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 23,233

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    No, those were fine.

    Can you post a picture of where you have movement?
     
    crazycasey likes this.
  28. Ericnova72
    Joined: May 1, 2007
    Posts: 589

    Ericnova72
    Member
    from Michigan

    Take your large flat course hone stone, or put some emery paper down on a surface plate and hone a couple thousandths off the parting line of the carrier caps to tighten it up, then add some sleeve retainer if you want.

    It's the same result you'd have if you bought steel caps and fitted them. You trim the parting line face of the replacement caps with a mill or surface grinder until you have a round bearing bore with them bolted up.
     
    crazycasey and Boneyard51 like this.
  29. Except his started out round, if he removes material from the cap I would sure be measuring the bore to make sure it’s round, if it’s not it’s going to eat case bearings quick. I’m with Gimpy, there’s a problem with the housing, and yes please show us pictures of the problem and maybe how you are measuring.


    Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
     
    crazycasey and Boneyard51 like this.
  30. Boneyard51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2017
    Posts: 6,431

    Boneyard51
    Member

    Taking a few thousands off the cap, is not going effect the roundness enough to hurt anything. If it was mine I would take a few thousands off the cap and put the bearing and stud mount stuff in there and call it good.

    Most folks don’t understand how much a cast iron housing flexes under stress.

    Also, after gear sets are made, they are given to a person to “ hone them in” for final fit, so that they don’t howl. He has a machine that he can change all the perimeters concerning the fit of the gears. After he finds the best setting for that set of gears, he marks them. Then they are sent to another cat that puts the gears into a housing, according to his view of the pattern. And don’t forget the guy that machines the housing. Now, you have four people with machines and opinions and tolerances, you put them together and that’s where you get the numbers that don’t compute. Gimpy touched on this in an earlier thread. And coupled that with a rear end that has has 100,000 miles of stress and flex, is a wonder the gears are even still in there. That’s why...... close counts on these gear boxes.










    Bones
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2020
    57 Fargo and crazycasey like this.

Share This Page

Register now to get rid of these ads!

Archive

Copyright © 1995-2021 The Jalopy Journal: Steal our stuff, we'll kick your teeth in. Terms of Service. Privacy Policy.

Atomic Industry
Forum software by XenForo™ ©2010-2014 XenForo Ltd.