Technical First attempt at filling the roof on my 35 5W. Advice needed.

I've been reading and watching all I could find on this but didn't find a post/vid of how to actually fabricate the filler panel other than Walden Speed. Since I don't have a super uber magic power Yoder hammer I'm using an English wheel and shrinker. This is one pass through the wheel with the flatest anvil.. Looks like it's wanting a bit more crown on top and some shrinking on the sides. I'm thinking to shrink only the corners to see which way the metal moves. Then try wheeling the center some more. All help is appreciated. I don't expect to get it on the first try but I do want to learn how the metal moves and how to move it. Practice makes perfect but without good instruction I'm wasting time and material. In the mean time I'll do some cleaning , thinking and praying for guidance .

Thanks
Leon

 

With a little pressure it looks much better. It looks in the ballpark. Still resisting the urge to mess with it. Time to fire up the BBQ grille.

 

Shrinking the edges will raise the center and cause all sorts of distortion.

 

Don’t shrink on the edges especially with a bench mounted one.
They don’t reach in enough.
Keep rolling. Having a template of the shape you want would help you determine where to wheel at and check progress.

Kinda looks like you are wheeling a lot in one area and not wheeling out much from there. Do you have someone helping? That’s a large panel.

I will ad I have used a shrinker on the edge lightly to help remove a ripple on the edge.

 

Concur. Might want to change your wheeling pattern too. www.metalmeet.com

 

Nope. No help. Doing it solo. What area should I be wheeling ?

 

Using a slightly curved lower, the metal will fall away on either side of the line.

Right now, you are rolling diagonals. You may need to put in a front-back, and side-side lines.

 

I'm guessing here but what about s few relief cuts?

 

Needs more cow bell I mean crown.

 

Agreed. Just made a pass. Will make another.

 

Yup. More crown. Don't be in a hurry.

Even the old British dudes that taught me refused to hurry.

One of the things that Walden has that most other builders don't is a buck. They can put the skin on it, and look for gaps, or interference.

You will need you use your eyes, and imagination.

 

Should not need them. Welding them back up will do more harm than good.

 

When Dave & I was ask to fill a friends roof on his 34 Chevy dirt track car turned hot rod we threw caution to the wind,bought a cheap HF English Wheel, and went at it.

We didn't have a clue as to how to use it but watched a video and a hour later we were shaping the new top.

There is no doubt we made some mistakes but it turned out pretty good and we were pleased at how it turned out. HRP



We fabricated new top bows for everything that was missing. HRP

 

Ah...You're right. I can see warping.

 

All of it
And you need to find a friend to help hold that. Letting the weight put unnecessary pressure on it. Could be part of the issue.

 

After chopping my 3W we used a '65/'66 Mustang coupe roof section to fill the hole. Overlapped the opening an inch or so and sheetmetal screwed the filler panel every 1 1/2" around the perimeter to the roof. The screws held the panel in position for stitch welding and when completed the screws were removed and the holes plug welded. My old friend who did the body work was an expert on chopping and filling old Ford roofs, he's been gone many years and we all still miss him. It really is a job for two people, especially if you're rolling a crown on your filler panel. The one thing you don't want to happen is to lose the crown due to shrinkage when it's welded. Nothing looks worse than a flat or concave roof.

 

Personally I would not fill in a top... it’s one of the ways you can tell it’s a Henry...

 

Agreed. Once I figure out how to make it I'll do it over with some help.

 

The roof and track are jacked. A cloth insert is how I would have gone if I had a choice. The PO welded in a roof filler and did a pretty bad job. I'm trying to make the best of a bad deal.

 

Second wheeling side to side from to back in a square pattern. Now I've got a big bow front to back. How do I wheel it to get a side to side bow ?

 

Ok, you have a lot going on there. I commend you for tackling such a big piece to start with.
However here's what's worked for me in the past. I'm not giving advice or telling you how to do this because everybody's different and every panel is different and if I'm not there running over my own fingers I can't see where to go next.

But -

Cut a small piece of metal that you can learn what pattern works for the curves you need. Like an 18"x18". That's big enough for one man to get the feel of it.

Also use the closest thing you can to what Henry used. Anneal the panel first. Yes I know it's not aluminum but this will help. Most Steel isn't as good as it used to be. So relieving some of the natural stress and tension will help. See what you can get locally but buy good steel. The more impurities the harder it's going to be to work and the less likely it's going to weld good back in the hole.

As many have said it takes two people to roll a big panel, because as it's hanging off the other side it is loading up the pressure points on the wheel more than you can feel. You'll play hell chasing out unwanted curve as much as you'll play hell chasing and welding the bubble it creates. (that usually leads to a do over)

Use a shrinker/stretcher very carefully you can't very often force steel to do anything. You gotta coax it.

And last but not least put a big trash can next to you. I do this for two reasons

1- because the best metal shaper I know says one key is to throw it away and start over before you waste your day trying to fix something. There's wisdom there and it takes a while to understand this one. But He's absolutely right.
2- That Fuckin' trash can represents me not slowing down, taking my time and making small moves versus the one Hail Mary pass which in the end costs me money and time. I've learned to hate that trash can. Even the best shapers still recycle frequently, so don't beat yourself up if it doesn't happen in one try. That's learning, learning comes from experience, and experience comes from trying and failure.

The key is to let it guide you and tell you what it needs to get where you want it to go. That's sounds pretty Hippyish but it's not. Your asking a solid material to move in a way it wasn't programmed to. So really you are using physics to counteract manufactured tendencies. It's quite an accomplishment when you get it done. The Masters make it look easy, but it's not.

Good luck and enjoy it, 'cause in the end you got it done.

Stay Safe and all the best - Tim

 

^^^^what he said^^^^^^
Practice on a smaller panel. If you are trying to achieve a contour like that roof you have to work the entire panel.
Concentrating a lot in one area will be the same as hammering in one area. It raises that spot and causes the surrounding area to distort.
You need help to hold the panel. The person helping needs to learn with you.
Both will be shaping the part.
Practice with a smaller piece and work the entire panel and watch how it contours the entire panel.
Use this knowledge to make your new skin

 

And any part you attempt to make that doesn’t make it on the car is not a waisted attempt if you learn from it.

 

First off, what’s your wheel look like?
stiffening braced?
Second it’s incredibly hard to wheel a piece that big by yourself.

Shrinking the edge at 1” deep is going to cause puckers if you over shrink the slightest bit and that’s really easy to do. It’s better to wheel everything else and up to- but not the edges and that’s kinda hard to do by yourself.

Sometimes you over wheel (aka over stretch) an area, the shrink disc can help reverse that. It also helps iron out wheel tracks.



Here’s what I did to mine.
It works way better .


a little more/
Completely un orthodox and I say this without fully understanding or knowing but here’s what do know.
The shrinking disc moves metal away from where the disc was. You can use the disc to raise a low spot if you can get to the back side where that low spot is high on the back.
That being said you can crown the roof panel with your shrink disc.
If you look at this tape line that’s about 6” or so off the edge? For example and Maybe it is or maybe it’s a little bit over but again call that neutral.


On the top side, run the disk from the neural line in progression more and more and more towards the edge probably quite heavily in the corners. That metal will go away from the disc. Flip the panel over and again from the neutral line go towards the center in progression more and more and more towards the center. That metal will move away from the disc. It works and there’s no obstacles to doing it alone. .

Usually the roof’s highest spot and apex isn’t in the dead center. Generally more towards the back somewhat.

 

Blessed Sunday everyone. I'm ready for some more learning today. I re-watched some videos by Lazze and others late into the night and decided since this panel is toast I'll experiment on it. Gonna wheel it side to side to to crown it. This seems to be the hard way so to speed up the lesson I'll use an anvil with more profile and/or more pressure. I'll start with the flatest but use more pressure.

 

I'm not the most experienced metal shaper around here, But, I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night and I've watched a lot of videos. If I remember correctly Ron Covel has an exercise to dome a panel, wheel only in the center of the panel. Then flatten the panel by using a flat anvil wheel only on the edges. The object is to put as much stretch in the edges as you imparted in the center. The panel will lay flat again.
You haven't ruined your panel, I've never heard of wheeling a panel to thin to use. You just have to be smarter than the piece of metal. Your edges are stretched and it's going to take a ton of wheeling in the center to overcome the edges.

 

After re-watching the Lazze and Covell videos I realized I started out backwards and should have started wheeling in the middle of my pattern and work my way out. I also realized I needed some support so I made some ribs. Gonna make this panel an inch bigger than the last so I can trim outside where the previous panel was welded on. Today was a good day. I got to use the English wheel, bandsaw, belt sander and I learned a lesson or two. Since I expect doing this more than twice I made a paper template to speed things along.

 

I like your "get after it" attitude! 2nd times a charm they say.

Sent from my SM-G973U using The H.A.M.B. mobile app

 

Had some success creating some shape with a small panel. I wheeled the center panel first starting with the flatest anvil then went to #3. Found out I needed to wheel it three times across the short sides for each pass on the long side. Also used the rubber band on the short side to really move the metal. Did a little on the long side too. Ended up with too much crown. Was approaching dome status so I laid it on the ground and stepped on it a few times. It flattened out quite a lot but had couple dents in the middle. Went back to the #1 anvil with light pressure and they both wheeled out. Took about 20 min of fast sloppy work. I'll do it again tomorrow but I'll do it slow and take notes. Gonna stomp on my first attempt to try to flatten it out then apply what I learned to it. I realize now that slow and methodical is the way to achieve accurate results. Too bad I suck at that. Maybe some beer will help. I've been dry for a few weeks.

 

Hopefully the steel houses are open tomorrow. Want to buy some rectangular tubing to brace my English wheel and a couple sheets of 18 ga cold rolled sheet to continue my adventures in English Wheeling. Being able crank down on the metal really helps it move.