Technical Issue with Cad 331 using 39 Lasalle trans.

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Well I just got my 331 Cad motor back from the engine shop and I was gonna bolt on the 39 Lasalle trans so I could take some measurements for fitting it into my ‘35 Ford. After looking at both the extended bell on the motor and the transmission bell housing it appears that there are only 2 bolts (not counting the dowel pins) that are gonna hold this together. After looking at other images of similar vintage Cad motors it looks like my block is missing 2 additional threaded holes more or less just above the dowel pins. Of course I know that the Lasalle trans will be further strengthened when I install the lower portion of the extended bell that houses the starter but still doesn’t seem right. Has anyone else experienced this? I’m attempting to include photos. Thanks!


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Looks like there are two more bolt holes directly below the dowel pins, but appear to be smaller than the two at the top of the extended bell on the block.

Straying a bit, but what is that grey stuff surrounding the bearing retainer on the transmission?

 

Too bad there's not enough meat on the block to just drill and tap 2 more holes.

 

Yeah those 2 smaller bolt holes below the pins don’t line up with any holes on the bell housing. They gray stuff appears to be sealant not sure why I needed that.


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I'm thinking that if the lower half of the extended bell supported the hydro it should support the LaSalle.

 

I'd be inclined to do what it takes to make the lower pair match up rather than just relying on the extension. It can't be too strong. This may just be my engineer's redundancy kicking in but I like peace of mind.
regards,
Phil

 

Yeah thanks I’m gonna visit the machine shop today and see if he thinks there’s enough material there to drill and tap a couple of holes.


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What about fabricating an adapter with crankshaft spacer, a bit of work but doable? A lot more inherent strength then.

 

I understand your desire to insert bolts in all the holes. However the top, and more importantly the series of holes at the bottom are more important. The twisting effort (shear) caused by torque will be restricted by all the bolts. The weight of the motor, and the placement of motor mounts will tend to create a separation or splitting effort between the bellhousing and the transmission.. That will mostly be controlled by the bottom bolts. If you can drill and tap the motor, go ahead, otherwise use grade 8 bolts, and tighten them up. You'll be fine.

 

being cast,prob wont warp too much if you build the 2 bolt areas up (outward,in this case)w/ weld ,then face it off and drill the 2 holes and tap them-just build up enough to match the 2 above

 

Thanks sdroadster, I was digging deeper in the internet and found an image of a 1951 331 Cad with the same bolt pattern that I have, meaning there are only the 2 bolts at the top of the block above the dowel pins. This would match an original Cadillac manual trans bell housing which I don’t have and understand are pretty difficult to find. Based on that I’m just gonna bolt it up with some good hardware. Thanks all!


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Are you using the Lasalle bell housing ? You probably need the next to impossible to find Olds stick bell housing. My 37 floor shift Lasalle did not come with a bellhousing. I ran it behind a 58 Ford thunderbird police interceptor Special ford FE. (factory 060 over pistons.I used the FE bell and about an inch thick adaptor plate. another option would be to tun the caddy adaptor bell to Ford Fe then the FE to lasalle trans. My older brother (RIP) did a lot of Engine swaps and quit a few using 2 adaptors and allen bolts to get what he needed and turn down a pilot adaptor ring and a double seal ball bearing.

 

I think the adaptor to move the starter to the opposite side of the engine might provide some support. I sold My olds stuff about a dozen years ago. I don't rember all the bolt locations.

 

From what I recall you end up with 4 bolts (7/16) when doing that swap. Seems @F&J went thru this with me back in 2010 when I had a 50 Olds bell I picked up and had questions regarding the fitment. I don't know if @Paul has done this swap but he may add some thing here.
Are you planning on using side mounts attached to that bell housing like the factory did?

 

Yes I’m using the original Lasalle bell housing because that’s what my understanding was, that it was a direct bolt on to the early Caddy block, and I still think it is just not the block I have. I’m not sure what you mean by side mounts on the bellhousing, was that on the Lasalle’s?


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here is a pic from one of F&J's posts.

the left bell is a 51+ olds unit. It has the two side mounts attached that go to the crossmember in the Olds configurations. The unit on the right is the hard to find 50 Olds std bell #558701 with only one mount attached. Now, Cads apparently did not use the side mounts on their bells I am told and they are not configured to accept any mounts.. What is the number on your bell casting? From the front of your pic it looks to have the tap holes for the side mounts and it appears that it may in fact be a 50 Olds unit..558701
So, where are you planning on placing the rear mt(s) for the tranny in your installation? Wonder if you would gain any advantage of using the side supports versus a single mount near the rear of the tranny if that is where it may be planned for. That is with the four bolts attaching the bell would you be better off supporting near the bell rather than at the rear of the tranny?

 

Just for grins here is a pic of a cad engine with the factory bell


and a close up of that same bell. Looks darn similar to your bolt config on your bell. FWIW.

 

Could be some insight here

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/tech-info-cadillac-ohv-v8s-1949-1962.8282/

 

Ok so based on your photos it looks like I have an Olds bell. I didn’t give it much thought into how I was gonna mount the trans but now it would seem like a side mount would be best. I have a lot to do still before I get to that point. Thanks for all the info!


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I am still a bit confused about the rear of the Cad bell. All the 49-54 331's I have found on the net seem to have two more bolt holes which are missing on yours. what year is the 331?

 

yup, the transmission is bolted to a '50 Olds bell, if it were me I'd be looking for the Cadillac bell.

 

Yes vtwhead but look closely at the Cadillac bell you sent me a picture of, that bolt pattern matches my 331 motor which is a 1951 by the way. You don’t suppose they had 2 different style blocks one for the hydro and one manual?


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I doubt that. As Paul stated above it would be great if you could find a cad bell. I made an inquiry with another member that had one a while back. Waiting to hear.

 

Well I just confirmed that my block originally came bolted to a synchro-mesh transmission because the stamping on the top of the extended bell begins 2N1, so yeah I think you are correct Paul I should try to find a Cadillac bellhousing. That’s gonna be a tough one!


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The 37 tranny has a shaft that sticks out the front,its for reverse?,not sure if your housing has the hole for it,37 is a one year only setup,38 and up does not have the shaft,move the gearshift on your tranny,it will pop out of the front.Also there is a oil passage for the top bearing,oil flows through it and goes back into the case,that is why there is a gasket between the tranny and the bellhousing.I dont have any pictures of mine,but if you go to the Cadillac-Lasalle club forum,there is some technical advice there as well. OOPS, i didnt read the whole title,this is for a 39,just disregard the above,I cant help any with that. Harvey

 

@dugydog did you ever find a cad bell?

 

No I didn’t!


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@vtwhead So I just found a nice Cadillac bellhousing however I think Im gonna stick with the olds one because the Cad one is thicker and because of that the input shaft will not fit completely into the pilot bushing.

 

My 331 Cadillac motor has the same hole pattern as yours - no need to drill and tap anything.
Used a 39 Ford trans with an adapter behind this motor. Have an original Cad bell housing as well sitting in the parts pile.