Have front frame made out of Model A rails. It has a dropped tube axle The steering is a unisteer rack , everything is all ready painted, is there a panhard bar that bolts on without welding? I see speedway has this one for 35-40 http://www.speedwaymotors.com/1935-40-Ford-Front-Panhard-Bar-Kit,3341.html or would a dead perch be the way to go Car is twitchy in the turns.
Its a uni steer rack so its mounted like a vega box would be to the frame. Its basically a vega cross steer without the vega box. If you watch the front axle when you steer the reo you can see the axle move back and forth on the shackles. Its speedways 6" drop tube axle set up.
Thinking of making our own panhard bar. Bolting one side to the pass side frame and other side use speedway's panhard bar bracket that bolts to the bat wings. Anybody think it will help?
If it was my car, I would make the panhard bar as long as possible. I would fab a mount on the pass side wishbone, 4 link, or whatever you have, and the driver side would go to the frame rail. Good luck.
Agreed, normally the longer the better. If it's a suicide front, you may be limited to mounting it to the crossmember though. Just make sure the bar is level to the ground with the car at ride height. That batwing bracket has a lot of offset to it. It will probably work ok, but you'd be better off with one that lined up the panhard bracket between the mounting holes.
On any cross steer [ whether it is R&P or Steering Box ] the Panhard bar needs to be the SAME LENGTH measured from balljoint to balljoint as the drag link. It also needs to be mounted at the "SAME ANGLE"[ parallel ] to the drag link .It can be higher or lower, or further left or right but it must pivot on the same angle The idea is to have the Drag link and Panhard bar move on the same arc together [ similar to parallel 4 link ] to cancel out any bump steer
Why not make your life a hell of allot easier and just make a dead perch for the left spring eye? Panhards are always just more crap hanging down on the front of the car to see and try to hide. Another thing to think about too, although in the last decade it has become "nessesary" to hang a panhard with a cross steer unit, it wasn't always considered so. If you shackles are at a true 45 degree angle or a bit shallower you souldn't have much in the way of side to side movement at all. I have two cars set up with cross steer boxes in my possesion right now and niether is built with a panhard bar, nor do they need it. It's all about fanatical set up of the springs and shackles. Remember, ford did cross steer on everything after '35 and until '47 never needed a panhard. The only reason then was the addition of longer shackles to the Ford line for '48.
Well said...... Another option to the dead perch would be this, i have seen a couple but only have this one pic pulled from elsewhere on the HAMB. This option is very small and can be made several ways.
Ford didn't need a panhard bar because they used an "A" shaped wishbones , but when you split the bones and have excessive caster the whole front end wants to parallelogram itself. Excessive caster transfers vertical forces into horizontal forces A dead perch is a good idea , and very simple! I like the idea of removing shit from the car [ that is true traditional hotrodding ] The dead perch is very effective when the crossleaf sits quite flat [ reducing the sideways movement due to the Arc ] The dead perch needs to be on the opposite side of the steering box so that when it arcs on a radius from the centerbolt of the spring, it is approximate to the arc of the drag link. This method is more effective with a R&P because the drag link is shorter [ closer to the length of half the spring width ] Here's a pic of one on a center steering box
Without getting into a pissing match, NO. While some of your physical theories are correct at their extremes, with seven degrees caster your not transferring vertical energies into horizontal. It has nothing to do with the mounting of the rear of the wishbones or radius rods. By your theory a Ford unsplit wish bone would simply be a fulcrum for the front suspension to pivot side to side. In the real world, this stuff it is all about the angle of the shackle and spring assembly. When a Ford style crossleaf spring is hanging on a shackle that is at a steeper angle than 45 degrees, it allows the axle and locating assemblies to move side to side on the springs fixed center pivot. That's what a panhard rod is meant to correct, to locate that axle. However, when the shackles hang at a 45 degree angle or even a bit shallower, the perches, spring, and shackles make a more or less "preloaded" or straight line across the front that locates the axle positively. These angles are calculated with the weight of the vehicle on the front end. When the front end is set up "loose" as in my first description, the side to side movement of the cross steering drag link pulls the this freeplay back and fourth as it steers. A spring and shackles at the corresct angle resist this. I don't know how to explain this more clearly. Since the advent of aftermarket axles in the late seventies, there has been a range of perch pin distances out there. Pretty rare these days to get exactly what you need in spring width eye to eye unless you really know what you are looking for. The problem of "loose" handling with cross steer cars arises because of this, and the new band aid is a pan hard rod. It's been around for about thirty years now as an aftermarket part that DOES solve a problem, so now it's a "must have" with cross steer applications. New guys get involved that don't know the "old way" of solving this problem, now a panhard rod is "traditional"... And the beat goes on. As far as the dead perch goes, it simply takes any excessive shackle angle out of the equasion by positvely locating a single end of the spring. For an American built car with left hand steering, it would always be placed on the left hand side. Take a quick look at every Indy roadster or sprint car with a crossleaf spring to see what I mean. Posistioning it there also helps counteract engine torque that would otherwise transfer it's load to highest stressed wheel, the right front. If you look at your picture you posted of the dead perch, you'll see it's mounted on the left front (American driver's) side of the axle.
No pissing match needed mate, I wouldn't lower myself to that level of egomania [ besides there are all sorts of problems that get created when the "wheel gets re-invented" ] A pissing match is usually caused by one side trying to "Pull Rank" with their "years of experience" after they misinform people and then afterwards save face trying to validate their argument! One of the worst things about getting involved in a pissing match is the mental insult you get from being bombarded with cliche type reasoning eg: "everybody does it this way", or "thats the way we've always done it" or some stupid "Rule" like "this is the way it has to be done" yet there is no merit or reasoning behind their statements except their status quo thinking. They also see some "trick of the week" modification that obviously works great in it's correct application ,then try to apply it to a different application Ladder Bars on a street car is a good example , works great on a drag car and people have been splittin' bones sinch the war [ Hell ! GM actually copied us hotrodders with the 3rd gen Camaro, blah blah! ] Now if you look closely at the picture I posted the pitman arm goes forward and under the center spring perch , it appears that the drag link is to the L/H side of the car [ the same side of the dead perch ] But it could also be split tie-rods in the photo, it is difficult to see clearly If you look at most Sprintcar / Midget / Indy Roadsters [ even modern Sprinters] you will notice the all have cowl mounted steering boxes ,so a dead perch would not contribute to any mechanical bump steer. All US oval cars and Indy cars turn left on the ovals as far as I know. A dead perch should be treated the same way as a panhard bar! You NEVER have a panhard bar on the opposite side to a drag link, pivoting on opposing arcs is a recipe for bump steer When my ol' man was running dirt cars in the 60's they always had the dead perch on the L/H side. This was because the lateral forces pulled the crossleaf under tension during hard cornering on L/H turns. If the dead perch was on the R/H side ,extreme lateral forces will try to Compress against the spring and try to create lift or jack the car [ a pole vault effect in springs with a large arch ] On the rear end they all mounted the panhard on the L/H side of the frame and the R/H side of the rear axle [ the opposite way to the front ], They then would raise or lower the angle of the panhard bar to increase/decrease R/R tire bite under hard cornering.
Still don't know why "modern" hotrod axle and spring manufacturers went away from the standard Ford dimensions for front springs 28-34 and perch width. Even using 37-41 and 42-48 axles with spring behind is doable with stock Model A or 32-34 front springs set up just like Ford did them. Special spring lengths are necessary to do spring on top on the later axles. An example of doing stuff just because you can rather than because you should.
Thanks for all the info trying to let it all sink in. Car is a 34 reo pickup with model a rails up front, best picture i have sorry. I thought about a dead perch but all the ones I've seen pictures of bolt to the axle. The speedway setup bolts to the batwing. Would a dead perch work on this style, Does anybody beside so cal sell them? for 80$ would be worth a try. http://www.est1946.com/adjustabledeadperchhead.aspx
I'm not aware of a dead perch available for The speedway axle. Pretty easy to do your own though. Either spin up some steel bushings for the axle side of your left perch, or have it done for you. Use the nylon or urethane bushings for a pattern. Assemble the front end with your new steel bushings in the axle side of the drivers shackle. Put the weight of the car on the front end, then tack weld the shackle, bushings and perch together. Remove being carefull not to break your tacks and finish weld the shackle, bushings and perch together. Instant dead perch.
That's a nifty looking set-up. Presumably the clearance betwewen the fork and the bolt is quite small, and has some sort of dry lubricant in there.
I had the very same issue on my A. I also have a Unisteer Rack and Pinion. Unless you make your own panhard, the longest one I found was Pete and Jake's universal. I run the spring ahead of axle, with broken bones. You want the panhard on the front to attach to the frame on the same side as the rear panhard. Hence I ran mine from left side (drivers) to just behind where the axle and bone connect on the right side. I welded the panhard to the right side bone. It needs to be as close to parallel to the tie rod as you can make it. Ideally it should be as long as the tie rod also. You want the tie rod and panhard bar to swing in parallel arcs. fficeffice" /><O></O>
That would be really nice but I'd have to drill a hole through the tube axle if I'm looking at it right. Looked at a bunch of setups over the weekend. Think will make a bracket for frame side so it will bolt through the boxed frame, and use a panhard bar like most people suggested. Will have to move brake line, and switch to a thru frame fitting. Also found the set bolt for the one king pin was loose letting the king pin move a little. Thanks for all the help hope it handles better.
Von Riggs setup would look better behind the axle. I have seen that setup with a ball bearing bolted to the axle with a shoulder bolt. And the U bar made from flat plate bolted to the shackle mount. I think with a little thinking the rear setup would not be too unsightly. also the dead perch is a good clean looking alternative. One thing to remember the suspension travel is not very much on hot rods. Ago
Can you text me a picture of this. I like that option but have been unable to save it in my photos. BBTexas
There is an excellent piece about cross steer and panhard bars near the front of the Pete and Jake’s catalog available online. Most of the posts in this thread have more experience than I do, but it just isn’t that hard. I’m sure you could fab a simple bracket to bolt a PH bar to your frame if you still want one.
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