Projects '23 Model T Gow Job - AKA: Sand Creek Special

Well put, but I decided long ago, this would be T powered only. And I agree, it would be WAY easier to just run an A.....But anyone can do that. Honestly, I never thought I'd own any overhead conversion let alone a Frontenac....that transition of ownership has led me down a path I never saw coming.

You can buy performance T cams, although the A and later cams seem to have a little bit better specs. But it really might be a moot point with the overhead conversion. And running a hotter T cam is a whole lot easier.

 

OK, on to other things.

Back on the block mods, we discovered the cam cover casting in the flywheel housing hit the T block. So it needed to be clearanced. Over the years I have found some very creative ways to get around not having a milling machine. It's not perfect, but it will work just fine.



Test fit the flywheel housing back on, we're all good now! As a side note, the upper mounting bosses on the block stick out further than the rear lower face of the block, by approximately .125". The bosses on the flywheel housing also stick out about the same, and need to be flush cut down (if not a tiny bit more) with the main surface of the flywheel housing. The surface of the flywheel housing that mounts to the T block, protrudes approx .125". What all this means is that after you machine and clearance the right areas I spoke of, all of this should fit correctly, depending on factory casting and machining variances of course.






OK, that problem is temporarily solved, but there maybe more to it as I move on....my reasoning is I want the trans (and thus torque tube length) to fit with a stock T block and T crank, as well as a T block with a stock length A crank (which is longer).

As a Model T guy, I am hard pressed to throw any Model T part out even if it's bad....that's good and bad. I was given this 4-dip beat up oil pan, that was going to be scraped by the previous owner, and it has been in my way in the garage for years. Too bad to really use stock, too good to just scrap it. But it was always in my way....until now. I found a use. I cut the good bits off.....and yes, at the moment I still kept the transmission part of the pan...but probably not for long.




Lets test fit it..... Not bad to start with, still needs quite a bit more trimming. It's a start though.

 

I really like this kind of stuff. Thank you for posting it. I'm impressed by your creativity.

 

@rwrj Thank You! And if you want to sell any of those MG TD rockers, let me know!

 

Nice work, too bad the Fronty dealer shut down in 1929. Bob

 

@The37Kid , Made of unobtainium..........

 

I love new parts delivery days. This engine build has gotten a little out of control though (no surprise to me as I love building engines). I have definitely lost site of that poor boy kid putting together a car on a shoe string budget. However the mods I am making are still era correct...so maybe that young lad had a little more financial backing to build a hotter engine to stuff in his old Gow Job.

After trying to cheap out, and having solutions that just did not meet my needs, I decided the best way to tackle the main cap issue with the Model A crankshaft was just to ante up and buy the good steel caps. A call to Lang's solved that issue. The person who makes these does a fantastic job. It makes the price tag easier to swallow when they look this good.




So with that, I figured lets see how they will go on and fit. As I have said before, I am learning as I go with this because the people who know about A crank swaps are either vague with their info or are hard to find and contact, if they are still around. So I laid these on the crank and slid two bolts in the rear. The good news is, before, I thought I was going to be without a thrust surface. That is not the case. The A crankshaft and T crankshaft have the thrust surface in the same spot on the rear. The extra length on the A crank comes after the thrust area. The caps are also cut shorter on the appropriate ends to accommodate the extra journal length on the A crankshaft. Basically the front main on the block needs to be trimmed on the rear, and the rear journal on the block needs to be trimmed on the front. While longer main bolts are offered to fit the caps, they are pricey, I will seek another solution or look into some ARP hardware.




I plan to run a stock Model T short-block to start off with. Without having the stock full length oil pan and thus flywheel sump any longer, I need a good oil supply. So I bought a sump pan casting from Lang's.




But I have a concern on it's depth. Its a full 6" deeper in height. This may prove to be too deep and thus little to no ground clearance. I will have to measure off the bottom of the stock pan on the engine sitting in the chassis. Worst case is I'll have to shorten it and have someone re weld it for me. I plan on using some type of oil pump (trying to find a used big block Mopar pump to play with), I think I can make that work.

 

Here's a photo of my Fronty "S" head for inspiration.

 

What are the 4 things sticking up from the valve cover? oiler cups?

 

Oilers. Turn them 1/4 turn and there is a hole to squirt oil to the rocker arms.

 

Trying to get some things done that won't cost me money. Decided to put the stock A flywheel on a diet. Unfortunately, I'll be damned if I can find my scale, so it'll have to wait until Monday and I'll put it on the shipping scale at work.

I had already cut the first step off by this point, and started to remove the second step. I don't own a real lathe, but I do have a brake lathe. So that seemed good enough to use. Probably a good thing, because if I drove to someones house to use their real lathe, I'd still be cleaning up chips.




And here we are, 3 - 1/2 hours later. From pics I've seen, this should remove about 15 lbs give or take. I'm not building a high revving engine so I wanted to keep some weight on it. I'm shooting for approx 50 Lbs. , a stock flywheel is between 62-64 lbs. I did remove a little material from the engine side also, but not too much. It is lighter, but still a heavy hunk of iron. (EDIT: measured weight was 52.35 lbs to this point in the weight reduction.)

 

That's pretty impressive. I had to take mine to the local machine shop. I have a lathe, but not a brake lathe.

 

It'd be better to do it on a regular lathe...but you know, use what you got.

 

Still planning on using the stock wishbone?

 

Any relation? Bob

 

This pan is begging to be put on your block. tim

 

I imagine so, but mine would never handle that diameter. Good job using what you have.

 

Guitarguy and RWRJ you both have a feel for the Heart of hot rodding... A Breath of Fresh Air.. Thanks Ya"ll Rock!!

 

WOW, Thank You for all the responses! I know sometimes the boring stuff loses some people. But it's still all part of the puzzle of getting it together.

I'll answer some questions.

I was back and forth on what to do, My bud @David Mazza had me almost swayed back to using a stock style wishbone, but I think as of right now I am going to stick with the split bones as I originally planned. The Fronty style pan I plan to build and use for the A crank engine will pretty much necessitate split wishbones.

I tried to make contact several times about that car and never got any response. I am sure in some way after hearing the story of the car and owners that I am, but I bet you have to go back at least three, maybe four generations to get there. I know my grandfather came directly from Sicily, where the name was pretty big at the time, and I believe that's where the owner(s) of that car came from also. I wish I could have bought the car when it came up for sale, it's freakin' cool. Thought about using the same name though, but I never have been big with lettering on my own vehicles. We'll see.

As a side note, some research on the family name has led me find evidence of Mob activity in the early 20's / 30's in the US. I also found a booking sheet with a fellow that could have been related to my grandfather, that has the same name as my father. I'm not into any of that, just a plain old guy with no money most times and a passion for cool cars.

We've chatted about that, it's a cool piece, I cant afford the price of admission though and can whip up similar on my budget easy enough. The other fact is, that pan is really only good for the T crank version of engine (or a Scat stroker with T rods), the A crank usually requires dimples for the A rods to clear, just below the pan rail. Usually a stock steel pan is heated and dimpled. Plus also not sure if the front pan dam has been moved forward at all? That was usually needed for stock length A cranks. I am a little wonder-some about its exact construction / application.

Thank You very much for that righteous comment. I feel honored to have such a statement made. @rwrj ride has come a long ways and is looking pretty dang awesome now, and I had the same feelings about his car as it started to morph into something really cool. Keep following, I will always post when time, money and progress allow.

 

Quick update on the flywheel reduction weight. It measured out to 51.15 lbs on the shipping scale.

 

THANK YOU @rwrj ! The MG TD rockers are going to work! Now to figure out the details of mounting them. Hopefully the guy I bought them from sends me the second set I paid for, I need to harvest all the straight rockers to make this work.

Anyone have a suggestion for what to use for shaft material? I'd like to run one common rocker shaft, the stock MG shaft is too short by a couple of inches. The shaft diameter is .590" (15mm), seems I would have to turn some of the common stock down if I can find someone with a lathe, but I'd also like to drill holes through the shaft for mounting (like a typical Chrysler shaft). I have no idea what would be a good material to use.

 

guitarguy, I'm not sure if the diameter is the same but I would think the MGC 6 cylinder shaft would be longer.

 

Hahahaa. They look right at home there. I wonder if bronze or stainless steel boat propellor shaft would work?

 

You need 15mm shaft(.5905). Based on my years of machining experience I would suggest IHCP cylinder rod material. (Induction hardened chrome plated) it is very hard and wear existent and if you heat a localized area to red hot and let it air cool you can drill holes through it without a special drill bit.

 

Yeah, I guess it would have to be something hardened. Duh on me.

 

Neat! Those are similar to air cooled Volkswagen performance rocker arms, except the adjustment screw is cupped for the pushrod. Another trick with VW's is running bolts and spacers instead of clips; might be worth incorporating into your new shaft if you opt to make one.

 

back to cam shafts, i believe that 2.90 is the biggest lift cam that will go thru the block holes without modification. atleast thats what bill stipe talked about when making the 290 stipe cam. i dont think he makes them any more. i have a new one i am not going to use. keep up the good entertainment here!

 

I think your correct---or at the minimum, the .290" cam only needs a small notch----can't quite remember myself. and as far as I know also they are not made anymore---or at least on a regular basis.

However, I just found and sent a check today for a NOS Stipe .310" (Laural-Roof) Cam and lifter set. This will go in the engine with the "A" crankshaft...that DOES need grooves cut in the cam bore as well as bigger lifters.

 

I get what your saying, I was just wondering (as I have seen it in the past) if bronze or brass shafting would work fine, and no special heating or post treating would be needed for drilling and such. Iv'e only got basic garage tools at my disposal. I've been looking at McCaster Carr for different shaft....15mm does not have alot of choices though.

If anyone wants to help me make a shaft, I'd be willing to go that way also. Maybe if you have the capabilities, you can make me a set of stands also. But it is still a budget minded project.

 

Looked into that after your suggestion. Seems to be a hard thing to find reasonably as it was only used 2 years. Plus I still can not find the diameter spec.