@Six Ball really incredible the momentum taking place here... Regarding Bowtie, I now recall that story maybe by your mention... The old dusty mix of soon to be reborn historic components are a sight to see...thanks for sharing the journey Any pics or info on that Historic Racer you spoke of? Your Roadster is in part That Racer correct? That was an exciting time in Hotrod... They were close to Period Hotrods in Look, Stance and happened I suspect in unison of one another...I remember posting a few of those Racers here in the Louver and Homogenized Threads. Look forward to the...Racer Called Six Ball...
Very cool picture of the dock in Oakland. I was just reading in Peter Vincent's Hot Rod Garages book how Oakland was at one time the Detroit of the west in regards to auto production.
Man that’s a shit load of wood in that car! good in you for documenting and taking on the wood project. It’s probably out there in a book that no one has. Surprising how much isn’t online in an age of everything being online! I still get every book I can get my hands on. the spliced in wood repairs you shared look awesome and I’d never even thought of doing that looking at the wood in my model A. Gives me some ideas!
Six ball those tools are available for undoing the steering, not saying your dad didn't make that one but I have a couple of them factory made. I really like what you are doing here. I am interested in seeing how it turns out.
Stogy, Are you asking of the old racer I couldn't buy? This car is only part of that in my mind. This is kinda' sorta' what I might have done with that one if I was as mature as I am now. There was a time when stock car racing was young that they were street legal and people raced their family cars and a lot of races were held on public roads. Not the illegal stuff real racing. This one would have to be "Four Ball". 1/2 of a V8 ball. WC Durant, related to Billy? The whole East Bay area was far more affordable and accessible than the San Francisco side Tons of industry. Lots of hot rods and racing. Even when I was going to college in Oakland in the 60s there were shops run by old guys who could build or rebuild ANYTHING. I also think a huge indoor wrecking ward I used to frequent was part of the old Chevrolet plant. It had moved to Fremont by then. Great time for me! Tim, yes , lots of wood. I really like the Idea of patching the pieces I can and making new pieces for those too far gone to be strong and using some steel where it could help. I'm lucky to have so much help but I'm getting pulled in several directions already. A couple of guys don't understand my yearn for cool old wood and one thinks nothing but all new pretty wood will do. So somewhere between new steel and new wood lies my build goal. I will at least try patching some of the better pieces just to do it. Maybe I'll patch the good stuff and use it for patterns or keep it if others need patterns. Sort of confused right now but I'll just "chip" away so the speak. Thanks for the interest guys.
Yes that would be the one...I get that it was a want that is now part of your inspiration...all good...any pics maybe a name or Speedway...man a ton of iron must have been cycled through those races...
Can you save any of the original wood by stabilizing it with epoxy? It's commonly done with punky wood for fancy knife handles. They paint the wood with epoxy then put it in a vacuum chamber.
Dumprat, Thanks, I'm really trying to keep it moving this time. My helpers won't stay around if I don't. At first it was sorting through the parts and now it's sorting through the information. Grumpy gaby2 has been a big help with pics and measurements I Know my dad didn't invent the tool but this one is plainly not a factory made one and it says Craftsman 15/16 at the top. I used to have quite a few tools he had made or modified but most of them were stolen from my garage in Carson City years ago. I found the tool box they were in at a flea market.
[QUOTE="Six Ball, Well I messed that up! Top of quarter front of trunk area and rear of passenger compartment. The large block has a grove/ notch that matches one on the other side. That piece ends there with an old cut. there is another two screw plate close to the sheet metal that runs across the notch. Could there have been a metal rod there that went across the back of the seat? View attachment 4534621
My reply does not show up on my last post, but I go in to edit, and it is there! ??? Anyway. The notch in the big block is where the top support shaft comes in from the outside. (used when the top is down) I am going to use a 1/2" coupling nut welded to a 1/8" flat bar, and slide that into the grove, using four screws. The shaft is 5/8" if I remember right. The cut on the end of your block is factory. (one of the things that confused me early on) The other short block (with the seat back half lapped in) mounts to the front of this block, the cross framing for the top of the trunk mounted to the rear of your block.
OK thanks. Every day it makes a little more sense. I can see that some of the difference in '25 and '26 in the back are in your pictures. While viewing my pictures I want your input on whether you think I can repair my pieces or if I need to replace everything. Really on the trunk there is one missing piece and the cross brace that needs attention. The rest is useable I think.
One way to check is with the tip of your pocket knife, if it goes in say less than 1/16", the wood is probably usable. ( this is only a roll of the dice/ tounge in cheek estimate) In say the trunk, I am thinking that you are right. Besides, the trunk can come off anytime to replace another piece. Same with doors. 'Myself' I would replace the complete front part of the sill (long piece that have the hinge pillar and the lock pillar attached) plus possably all four of the pillars because these are high stress areas. There needs to be a good solid connection between the sill and pillars. Think of rolling into someplace in town like (Micky D's or whatever) the twist as the car goes from street to parking lot. The suspension will take up a lot of this, but most cars will still have some twist. The rest of it will be piece by piece.... Just remember that the pieces need to have enough strength to tie together well. More close ups of each piece and hopefully I can help with an informed 'second opinion'. After looking at your latest close ups, and by lightining up some of the others, I think that I am finding more '25 and '26 differences in the backend. I'll say more when I get it straight in my head......
Getting my head around it and digging out the bandsaw. Passenger side quarter: Rear lower where it meets the sill and lower cross piece. Same as metal plate as on the other quarter. I think now these are wear guards for where the trunk holder upper thing rides when the trunk is closed. They may have had a rubber bumper. Forward is to the left. Broken piece is part of notched block like the other side. I have the rest of it. Piece with hole is from top of B (latch) pillar to back of passenger compartment. The hole is for the bracket that holds the top when down. Piece on the right is the long S piece from back of passenger compartment to lower rear sill. Top front of quarter with B latch pillar.The 4 screw holes are for the metal bracket and top bolt that goes through like the other side. I have it. Fire damager seen on the right. We almost lost this one! Lower front where B pillar meets the sill B pillar lookin back
No, sorry Stogy, no information or pictures of that car. Just a dim memory of standing behind it with the old Chevy four sitting on the floor in front of it and a 153 Chevy II four on an engine stand. It was red and white sorta SoCal paint scheme. It had some type of 3/4 ton floating axle truck rear end and a Ford front axle and spring with wide 5 front wheels. I think the guy was selling it because the old roadster racing was drying up then and jalopy/claimer (hard tops) races ruled. Lots or dirt tracks still around.
Getting close to the end of the closeups. A couple are missing. This is the back end of the sills and the cross piece under the trunk. Left rear corner. The hole is the rear mount on frame. The driver side rear quarter fills the space between outside of sill and cross piece with sheet metal on it. Right rear corner, mount hole is behind L bracket. Bracket screws to cross piece and Quarter long S piece. It appears to be original and I think I have the other one. Side of rear sills showing kickup and how they are pieced with flat pieces. Rear mount bolt still in place. L bracket in place. One more right rear corner and length of passenger side sill. There is the sheet metal piece that fits under the door. The quarter would go all the way to the floor and follow the contour of the sill through the kickup to the cross piece. The front of this sill is the broken piece still attached to the right front cowl bottom. The sills are made of stacked and angle cut flat pieces. There are notches in the sills for the A and B pillars. I have a few more small and broken pieces, and some that I don't know the location of. I'm sure there is a can of metal pieces out there somewhere. I need the sheet metal piece that goes under the driver door.
Posting and labeling the pictures my seem like I'm talking to myself. Well I am. Handling the pieces and trying to figure them out, photographing them, posting, and writing descriptions has given me a place to start that I think will allow progress on the body and frame at the same time so I can keep my "crew" involved. This is kind of like running a small business. Idle hands are the Devil's workshop and these guys idle hands will lead to no good. The key seems to be the sills. They are the point where the frame and body meet. The body sheet metal wraps around the outer edge of the sill and is nailed to it. So the outside of the sill is the shape of the body. There are mount holes in the sill that locate the body on the frame. As built the frame is mostly narrower than the body. I want the frame and body contour to be the same from the front of the cowl all the way back. To do that the frame will take some cutting, bending, welding, and a bit of lengthening to make it come out right. That will change the relation between the mount holes in the sills and the frame Here's the present plan. I will use the old sills as patterns to make new sills and bolt them to the frame. Then I will make cross pieces to build what Ford guys might all a sub floor. Check it, measure it, make sure it is right and gives me the curve I want for the body frame contour. It will have to include building over the kickup all the way to the end of the body. Then we will shape the frame lengthen the existing cross members, build a rear crossmember and what ever else needs attention. When the frame is the right shape and length we can start on the suspension and mounts etc. When the frame is the right shape I can put the sub floor back on and see where the mounts line up and make any other needed changes. That done I can use the sills for patterns for real sills and begin the new wood body frame construction. This way the build can go on in two places either in one shop or two until we are ready to put the body on the frame. What do you think?
I hope other people chime in, I don't want to be the only one to give an opinion. I do think that you have a good plan to keep going on both body and frame. The only reason to tie up your frame is to provide a structure for your body building, a good subfloor should do the same. (You do have to keep your crew busy!) Remember that the sills are narrower on the bottom than the top, body kind of tapers clear to the frame level. I will also be here harassing! I have found that I have had some misconceptions of the '26 body. When you commented about having most of the floor wood, I thought to myself, ok, there are only 2 or 3 pieces. When you said that the rear cross wood had a grove in the top (rabbit) I'm going, what? But when you posted your last few pictures, it came all clear! The '25 has several sheet metal floor pieces and goes up and back down with the sills. The '26 has a level trunk floor and is wood floored! Makes since, You have a big opening now, so make a usable trunk..... I'll bet that this was used as a big selling point against the model T. Here are some pics I took this morning, The big piece of wood is the one for the back. This is something I put together 20 some years ago. I just could not figure how the tin floor was going to work. The old piece of wood was the only piece that I had of that area. I also could not figure out what that notch that the pencil is pointing at was for. With your last pictures, it becomes VERY clear. My back wood is only off from your dims like 1/8" one direction and 1/4" the other, and the length is right on at 39" between the S pieces of frame work. When you measured your rear piece, was it a true rectangle or was the bottom angled down like I have my square?
I'm glad you are here it beats talking to myself. I'm going down tomorrow to get the front of the sill out of the cowl bottoms and see what thickness material I need to get started. What kind of wood did you use for your patterns? I'm thinking of starting with layered glued and screwed ply wood just for ease and speed. At least on the sills and sub floor. Thanks for the tip on the taper on the outside of the sill/ I did not know that. I'll check that tomorrow too. I'll pull the metal from the big back piece and get a better idea of how it fits. Those were not nat's ass measurements except for the 39". I'll also check what I thought were floorboards to see if they are trunk floor or how they match up. Here's a '26 trunk and inside. [
Not a lot of wood conversations out there. People say weather they kept wood or replaced it with metal but nothing that seems to be as in depth as your getting here. please keep it up with all the posts. I know I’m going to have to replace more of the wood in my A than I want to and this thread will be a great learning tool/inspiration to tackle it when time comes
For the patterns I started out with pine, I had some. (pine will shrink a little over time) Later I started using alder. I had bought a hole bunch of it to use in my '26 coach. Then I found out how fast that it rots. So now I have all kinds of pattern material. Unless you are an excellent wood worker, do not expect to get each pattern correct the first time. Start out with the right thickness of sills, I cannot say this enough. If the sills are off the whole rest of the body will be off. You will need a 12" portable planer. Beg, barrow, or steal one. Someone had a list ( might have been the rusty Bowtie) of what is needed for tools. They do not need to be fancy, but you will use all of them. I would also add an angle square. Granpa's wood handle, brass lever, and rotating blade works great. (or two rulers bolted together with the short ends rounded works too). Once you get to going good, I have found that when you get a pattern correct, it's easiest to go ahead and make the other hand, and the final piece in the correct type wood. (leaving the connection points a little proud, on the final to use piece.) It is easier than trying to remember the setups for latter. Write down all kinds of stuff on your patterns. angles, distances, fastener sizes types locations. Check your old wood for type, I have found that the sills, pillars, and other high stress areas used a harder heavier wood than the other areas. This is another thing that I have written on my patterns. Before I forget, If you have posted all of your closeups, then you do not have enough. Also you need closer up close ups. With a digital it is easy now. I'm guessing about three times what you have. (I've learned this from past work, the picture or dimension you did not take is the one that you'll need. Sometimes you can surmise from several other angles that were taken. I am probably sounding like someone you wish would shut up!!!! I'm sorry!!
I have used Ash for car wood. It's what was used on the troop seats of my old M37 I am told it's what was used for ford truck body mounts. It doesn't rot very fast, takes stain well, is fairly easy to work and is cheap. Might not be the correct stuff for a Chevy but who wood know the difference? (Pun intended)
I have found that cardboard like cereal boxes, poster card or backup cardboard for large packages of paper (single layer) work well to take tracings off of the sills. Lay cardboard down, sill in normal posision, trace around the bottom. This gives you the smaller width. Lay another cardboard down, sill on top inverted, trace. Make sure to mark any cut outs, holes, etc. This gives the larger width, or top width. make sure that these two patters are marked so that they can be lined up lengthwise when transferring to the wood. Cut out the cardboards, one side up is for the right sill, turn both cardboards over and you have the left sill. I won't tell you how long it took trying to transfer board to board before I realized this! If there are some missing areas in one old sill make the cardboard for both sills and fill in the missing area.
GG2 These are really great tips. I'll be reading back through all of this. Tim, Ford wood ? Cut it out of toothpicks. Dumprat, a guy who is helping on another site says Northern White Ash. His work looks good. I'll start pricing some wood for the final pieces. Maybe my cabinet maker friend has a line on it. Maybe he has some scraps. Years ago I read several Erick Sloan books. One was Reverence for Wood all about wood in early America. It was very interesting. It tells how different woods have characteristics that make it the best choice for certain uses. Sometimes chair legs were made of one wood and the braces from another because of a chemical reaction between the two that caused them to swell and make the joints tighter. Muzzle loaders use hickory ramrods for strength and flexibility. Three different woods were used in wagon wheels. The hub the spokes and the fellows had different kinds of stress. I read that Concord Stagecoaches used over 30 kinds of wood. I have no idea how. Thanks for the help keep it coming please. Steep learning curve here.
I spent most of the day with the roadster. I removed the sheet metal from the back piece and then removed it from the sill. It is angled as GG2 said. I also clearly see that the sill is angled on the outside to fit the body angle. I was able to set the passenger side quarter on the frame and confirm that it does match the frame kickup. I figured out how the wood and metal pieces that go between the top of the trunk lid and the passenger area. Way different than I had thought. There are two rather thin pieces tacked together with two flat metal pieces. I think they straddle the blocks at the top of the quarters in the passenger area upper back. The thickness of the sill front main piece is 1 3/4". There is apiece missing in the cowl foot but I can work around it. I set the passenger sill on the frame. All mount holes line up. The notch for the B pillar lined up with a mark I made on the frame from the front of the Quarter. I took a lot of pictures but most of them didn't come out well. The shop door was open and there was too much back light. In some there looks like something was on the lens. So lucky for you there aren't pages of pictures. I'll have to retake those. My Idea of making a sub floor the shape the frame will work. I think that is the next major step.
Looking Good! Is that one of your helpers that needs to be kept busy that is holding the quarter? Yep that is the angle square, handy as all get out! Checking fits, getting up close to your wood frame. ( I had an old spinster lady for a typing teacher in high school, who said, get up close and 'make love to that type righter!!!') As far as the seat top/top of trunk opening wood, You have that right about not going the way that you thought! The only reason that they did like they did, that I can think of, is trying to get the best strength per pound of wood used, and fast assembly in the factory! You have it correct for location in your mind now! I'll recheck my sills again, but 1 3/4" thick seems 'to standard'! Is this the right hand sill? Before cutting a pattern, recheck thickness with another tool, like an adjustable depth square (like the one I showed in my last pic. or a thickness gauge. I've got a real cheap one for the planner check) What board are you checking in the last picture that I read just under 1 5/8"? I know that it doesn't seem like progress, but you are doing GREAT!
Another tidbit. The notches in the sills for the A and B pillars are not vertical on the back side. So Make sure that you mark the back side of the notch on your cardboard for both top and bottom. (this would be another area to use gramp's angle square to 'second check' the backs by angle. Check, trace the angle on something to come back to, or convert it to degrees and right down.) Another thing, You probably already doing this, but put the center line not only on your frame, but also the sub floor, body parts as you go. (I'll shut up now!)
No, Keep it coming. Think of me as an empty bucket. Some of the things you are telling me have never occurred to me. Some people are so dumb that they don't know anything, some don't even suspect anything. I'm in the later group. The last picture with the tape is the sill but the angle doesn't give the right reading. I will recheck it all before starting. A good spot to measure is where the wood is like new under the sheet metal piece under the door. It is the right sill If 1 3/4" is right I may go with demential lumber for the subfloor or even plywood. It is for use in the short term and I mostly for shaping the frame to match the bottom outside of the body contour and then relocating the body mount holes to the new real sills. It deals only with the bottom dimensions of the sills and back piece It will likely need to be lifted on and off many times. It will have it's own set of issues but will allow the build to continue on both major components and not rush either at the expense of the other.
I meant shut up for now... a few minutes later, I'll think of something else. I agree with you on the subfloor. You are only looking for the size/contour of the bottom, don't care about the top, so it could be any thickness. You would not even worry about the taper from the bottom of sill to top of sill. Just make sure that the measerments (datum line used is the bottom). If I remember right, nothing on these bodies are dimentional sizes. Got the call to pickup the meat today, so rounding up coolers and boxes. She weighed 1,030 hanging (50% drop-off) so no wonder it heart! Will have to head to Portland with the other one tomorrow. (maybe stop by the 'candy store' on the way down, want to pickup some aluminum to make side covers for the midget '28!)
I got to thinking as I was driving today. I know bad thing! I had a brain fart just now and had to erase three lines of worthless ideas!!!!! EDIT: My bad idea was why not turn the subfloor over to use for the body...doesn't work, kick up becomes kick down!!! Then I got to wondering how to keep the holes, curves, kick up in the same place with the subfloor. Simple comparison... If you have ever put the silverware in the drawer, notice that the spoons do not stack straight up. with the thickness of each spoon, the top of the pile moves endwise. That is what is going to happen with anything with thickness if you try to use both sides. If you consider the body as a + and then the frame as a -, the subfloor built to match the body will be a + (for modifying the frame). The subfloor to fit the body will have to be a - because it is mimicking the frame. You will need two subfloors. Fastest way I know how to do this would be build the + subframe, then turn it over and build the - subframe on top of it. Turn both back over and you have it. One for frame one for body. Or can you borrow a '26 frame for a few months!? Anyone else willing to chime in? I know that my ideas are not the best.
I try not to think when I drive, I'm the guy in the next lane singing. My sub floor was to get the body line to the frame and see where the mount holes in the frame end up. They won't be a lot different. I may need to put new holes in the subfloor(sill) or new holes in the frame. Then toss the subfloor and build the body. The cabinetmaker suggested making the sills from a new type of plywood. He could make a glue-lam beam and cut the whole sill out of it on the CNC machine. Ups, downs. tapers, angles, notches, holes, etc all in one swell poop! That would probably work and then use real wood for the rest. But would it be right? I woke up this morning thinking about steel and heating my shop with wood..
The Jalopy Journal
