Hot Rods Homebuilt Fuel Injection Part II

Focusing in on it more now.

Barrel valve to regulate the fuel delivery is the key to it.

Search Hillborn Barrel Valve on the web.

Only look at the bare shafts or 'barrel'.

Either make friends with somebody that has a machine shop or sign up for metal shop

at high school night school.Make your own barrel valve.

See the little groove around the shaft and the little opening?

The groove depth and size of hole you can experiment with.

The body with the cylinder in it you make you can trial and error your barrel valve.

Air/fuel meter should keep you from washing down engine with too much gasoline.

Use a carb and gut it.Take everything out of it and plug up passages into venturi.

Put one nozzle at TOP of airhorn.Needs to be ABOVE throttle plate/plates.

Use a 10-15 pound fuel pump at the beginning and probably forever.With a good regulator.Start out with 8-10 pounds and see if it works.

Just keep trial and error and it should work.

Would not use your BEST engine for this.Just a stock one.

Then you can get deluxe and machine up your own airhorns that look real racy.

Add nozzles.2,4,6 and then 8.

Happy holidays!

 

Personally I would make all the mechanical things that you want in order to make it look traditional and then get a stand alone aftermarket EFI controller to run it properly. You can conceal a lot of it or blend it into the traditional theme like others have done before. While you may be able to machine some specialty things, getting it to work properly under all driving conditions will be a challenge. With adapted EFI, all you do is control air flow in whatever manner you choose . Meanwhile timing and fuel are automatically provided for all driving conditions. Electronic Fuel Injection systems have been around in cars since 1967 and just like camshafts and ignition systems they continue to get better. Nowadays they have self proggramming systems. Plug it in, tell it cubic inches, cam specs, and start it up.
Ready to drive in five minutes and self tunes from that point.

Heres an old HAMB thread before all the self proggramming units became available. They are pretty cheap too......
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/hilborn-to-efi-care-to-drop-any-names.375256/

 

Thanks

Having dreamed of one of these my whole life quitting before the finish line is not an option!

HILLBORN IS OUT OF BUSINESS!

Just talked to Mike at Alky Diggers.

He will get us through this thing.

We will buy a little from him and make a little of the parts.Have to be realistic about it.

There are free technical papers/articles on his site plus books if you get serious.

Do we need hand holding to get through something like this?

Damn straight we do!

 

Mopar,
Alky digger is your man,,,,.
Mike is very sharp on injection ,,,he knows his stuff.
He used to race back in the 60,s and 70’s,,,,raced at the US Nationals several times.
Won too.

Tommy

 

In my opinion, throttle bodies are to easy to get at junk yards. Holly jets work as pills and even have the same number system as Hilborn. Plus they screw in 1/4-32 tap needed. But you don't drop the pill in the dust. (( Ford and 750 Yahama RSX750 bodies shown. Ran about the same. Few tenths difference.

 

Thank you Tommy and Rich

I went to San Mateo school district a few years ago.

We were referred to Alky Diggers by Jim at Enderle because Alky carries used parts.

Just to be clear we will be getting used parts from Alky not new ones.

Yes,that worked out running into Mike there.

I was questioning using mechanical fuel pump driven at 1/2 engine speed.

I get it now.I think 'barrel' valve is really an 'idle/run' valve.

Pedal up it fuel passes around groove and out to engine.

Opened it goes through hole and runs on combination opening hole and pump output.

Something like that.

Factory throttle bodies are fine I suppose.I see they can be made to run good.

I'm just hellbent for the little cast stacks or something fabricated that looks close.

Happy holidays!

 

Thanks Rich

Mike told me about the return line and the pills.

Thinking about it I sort of figured out the pills were like jets and you confirmed that.Thanks!

Getting the picture about what is needed for a 'constant flow' fuel injection system.

Told Mike it was for a warmed over 292 or Lincoln 430 and he just kept listing off the stuff so I guess you build like a setup for the big guns.

 

Guys like you amaze and intrigue me.

 

Hilborn was bought by the holley group. All the molds and inventory are in Kentucky now. As soon as new part numbers get assigned they will be selling things again. This came from hilbor today at the pri show.

 

You might want to follow this thread.
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/fuel-injector-fab.1140921/

 

Thank you Racer X and Denny

When these places get bought out they go off our scope.

'Luke.Join me.It is the only way!'. 'Ahhh!'.

There is another way.We just won't do it at all when all the 'originals' are gone.

It is okay when they stay family and the sons run it like Isky.

Or somebody with a brain takes over.Like Frankland is still okay.Not as folksy but they

know there stuff.

So our 'Budget Constant Flow Injection' idea is set.

Looks like it needs a lot more info gathering.

In my opinion this is a good article for a roadmap of what is involved.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-1010-what-you-need-to-know-about-mechanical-fuel-injection/

Keep in mind this is mechanical constant flow fuel injection which we are only

doing for the experience.

Tip:Have seen carb bases used for butterfly air entry.

Happy holidays!

 

But..........if it don't work right it can be a MISERABLE experience.

 

Article says parts HAVE TO BE MATCHED.

My experience tells me there is the potential there to wash down engine with lots of fuel real quick.

While it is good to 'Always stay on the sunny side of life.' like the old country song.

There is also 'Expect the best but prepare for the worst.'.

I would definitely have a way to cut fuel QUICKLY and RIGHT WHERE YOU CAN GET TO IT!

Also take the plugs out and blow out by cranking engine any that does get in there.

Then of course TRY IT AGAIN!

Like any good red blooded American hot rodder.

We will keep poking around with this.

It does produce maximum output so definitely worthwhile.

 

Holley/Hilborn is not going away, part of the deal is that Don Enriques went with it

 

SIZE #2--Model *PG175B
4000
rpm
12.23 gpm 100 psi
3500
rpm
10.83 gpm 78.8 psi
3000
rpm
9.42 gpm 59 psi
2500
rpm
8.10 gpm 43.5 psi
2000
rpm
6.52 gpm 27.7 psi
1800
rpm
5.54 gpm 50 psi
1500
rpm
4.88 gpm 15.5 psi
1000
rpm
3.30 gpm 7 psi These are fuel flows for a typical pump that might be used for a gas burning 403 So you can look into flammable fuel pumps other than Hilborn if that is your intention. 10 psi is very low and may not atomize the fuel properly. On the Flashpoint hemi we run up to 400 psi. But that is a nitro motor. Al Gonzales was said to be using pumps from a coke machine. I don't think so. But it was some commercial pump. You might be able to modify a regular oil pump to function as a injector pump. I don't know how you will be able to do this without ability to machine things you need. I made some nozzles very similar to Hilborns using brass JIC 1/8 npt - AN -4 adapters. But I used my lathe and mill to do it. And then I only used them on my starting system. I stuck with Hilborn for running

 

Al Gonzales (ALGON) used aircraft fuel pumps(Cherry brand) in his units.

 

Not unless its tuned properly, and that is going to be your biggest problem.
If its coughing and spluttering and stumbling, that is not going to be giving you anywhere near maximum output.

I agree with an earlier poster, ekimneirbo, make it look like mechanical injection but fit a hidden EFI system along with a properly mapped (on a dyno) ignition system.
That will give you the best of everything, most power, best cold starting, best throttle response, and best fuel mileage.

 

Thinking about all this a bit more....

How about a blower manifold with eight EFI injectors aimed strait down each port, and the injector wiring and the "real" fuel rails all hidden inside the plenum.

Fit a flat plate on top, with eight functioning throttle bodies and trumpets with all the non functional mechanical injection parts. That should be fairly straightforward to do, and would have the eye appeal. And it should also run pretty well.

Someone somewhere, has probably already done this, but I have never seen it.

 

[QUOTE="RichFox, post: 13363372,
... On the Flashpoint hemi Gonzales was said to be using pumps from a coke machine. I don't think so. But it was some commercial pump. You might be able to modify a regular oil pump to function as a injector pump. g[/QUOTE]

I think he and others, possibly Eggers and Vetting, used the PROCON vane type pumps in their early more rudimentary systems. Yes this pump is common in soda dispensers, espresso, and coffee machines and is still readily available today!

 

Two things you need to consider are that if you are not controlling the air/fuel mixture well, in addition to poor performance you run the risk of washing oil off your rings with a rich fuel mixture and overheating with a lean mixture. Its not just about getting it to run decently.

 

What has to be worked out is when you are cruising at part throttle and want to accelerate. Grooving the barrel helps but 2^ it has to rich enough to accelerate without bogging (rich) or heistating (lean) and not wash the cylinders. EFI is the way to go on the street, of course hidden under the intake.

 

This sounds like re-inventing the wheel. I can understand trying to build something on your own but am I missing something here?

 

Thank you for all the responses!

More information gathering definitely required.

The Hillborn technical pages mechanical fuel injection overview gets 5 stars from me.

I am going to copy and paste it and any other good ones into notepad files.

The new Holley regime might clear them off or rewrite them.

Good tip about using industrial pump.

Happy holidays!

 

Procon pump are plentiful and the price is right.

Will find out the difference between them and Enderle/Hillborn/Kinsler ones.

Looks like Procon has a couple different bodies and the internals can be changed

to give different gallons per hour/PSI.

The 100 GPH kind of jumped out at me.

For a warmed over Lincoln 430 I don't think we are going to need much.

Pic is of aluminum body used one.Also saw a lot of brass bodied ones.

I like the aluminum one.Yep.Because it looks more like car ones.

The brass though is more of a postwar dry lakes homebuilt look though.

We will get one that works out to be best for what we are doing with it.

Happy holidays!

 

It's beyond me but why hasn't someone used a wide range O2 sensor to control the spool valve.

 

You do realize that 100gph is only 1.6gpm and most pumps are rated by gpm

 

I only mentioned the PROCON pump as a verification of what Rich Fox mentioned he had heard regarding the Algon injection

Realize that a Hilborn or Waterman pump is a gear type positive displacement so delivery is proportional to engine (cam) speed, while the PROCON is a vane type pump and delivery has a whole different relationship to it’s varying driven speed.

 

Thanks for replies.

Dreyer

Found somebody that knows how to do it.Sort of.He may be retired or not available.

Waiting to find out.

Big good news is it has been done and does exist.

Your point is truthfully beyond me at this stage.

Did get a very cool explanation of regular fuel injection build though.

From Jeremy at Ron's Fuel Injection.He did stonewall me about Procon pump though.

That is cool though.Everybody has there code.

I mean the explanation was clear as a bell.I wrote it down.A keeper.

How close we get to that kind of operation with little Procon pump is still up in the air.

Happy holidays!

 

Nowadays they have self proggramming systems. Plug it in, tell it cubic inches, cam specs, and start it up.
Ready to drive in five minutes and self tunes from that point.


Do you have names of some of these that a guy can look up ?

 

Check out Augie Delgados' setup.

Much discussion and photos
Here:
https://www.google.com/search?biw=1...va&oq=augie+delgado&aqs=mobile-gws-lite.1.0l2