Hot Rods Flathead build advice needed

If it is truly a Merc. and you can get it for $600 with a money back guarantee, yes that a decent deal for the crank (4") and the block. Decent, not killer.

I just built a fairly high performance 296 c.i. motor. It was built by one of the best in the business and his labor rate was more than fair.

It took me 5 blocks to find a good one and it cost me $6,000. That price does not include a lot of the parts that I've collected over the years. If I added those up, it would fall around $10K.

They are not cheap to build, so take your time and plan it out what you want to do.

Sorry, I just realized you bought it.

 

Hey guys,
On the stock rods pin bushings.
Does the shop heat the pin bore to install the new bushing.
My rods mic about.002 wear,,,,they mic .753.
I am assuming.001 clearance from factory new,,,correct ?
I want them in spec if possible,,,or at least close,,but not at all costs.
What say you?

Tommy

 

Hey guys,,,,does anyone know the approximate cc,s of a Flathead gasket ?
Also,,,,the approximate cc,s that a relief in a cylinder adds ?
I can calculate the swept volume of the bore and the cc,s in the chamber,,,the other is what I can’t figure out
Thanks everybody.

Tommy

 

I decided I had better get a coating on the block until I can do more with it.
Bare iron will rust very fast if left with nothing on it,,,even under a bag.
Since it will be Spring or later until my money will allow more machine work,,,I put a coat of primer on after cleaning with a wire wheel brush.
Keep me in your thoughts,,,,these cost money.
I am guessing about a grand to buy the pistons and deck , bore and hone.
Then the crank will come up later,,,,clean , mag , grind and balance.
Maybe 500 will get that,,,hoping anyway,,,,LOL.

Any ideas,,,,just keep them coming,,,thanks.

Tommy

 

Hey guys,,,I thought I would post some more pics for anybody that is gonna use the factory type oil filter.
Everyone was saying that there should be an orifice in the line coming from the block.
Man,,,,I looked everywhere and could not find anything that was that small in the fittings.
I assumed that someone had removed it,,,I finally found it today.
The first pic shows the factory tee fitting that attaches to the filter housing.
To look in all the openings,,,they were large enough not to slow down any oil flow.

The second pic looks into the end of the tee that screws into the housing,,,very large.
Then I finally found it.

The last pic is from the inside with the sending unit removed.
You cannot see the hole,,but it is there,,,,.061 thousandths,,,perfect orifice size.
The hole from outside is not drilled that large all the way through,,,,near the end it steps down to .061.
I thought I would post this for any rookies like me,,,that are new to Flatheads.

Tommy

 

From my experience, this type of oil pressure fitting is a good indication of a Mercury flathead. All the Merc's I have seen have this "rounded" fitting on the oil filter, while the Ford engines have one that is "blocky", with square corners.

 

Tommy, what are the pieces in post #147? I apologize, I can identify anything on a Small Block Chevrolet, but am a complete Flathead newbie. My only Flathead experience is rebuilding International Harvester C-60 4 cylinder tractor engines.


Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app

 

Hi Doc,
Those are oil shields that fit in the tappet chamber to control oil flow to the pan.
They fit onto the main oil galley pipe,,,with spring clip tabs .
The clips are visible from the other side,,I just didn’t post a pic of that side.
In the Flathead lifter chamber,,there are 4 large holes ,,that will allow oil back down.
I assume the holes are left over from casting ,,,,maybe to allow the sand removal,,,,I really don’t know.
I did read where they tell to make certain to reinstall them,,,,they even have an F stamped on them,,,the F faces the front of the block.
Thanks for asking,,,,I am learning as I go ,,,as well.

Tommy

 

Hi Denny,
Yeah. It seems the Mercs have a somewhat smoother approach to some parts.
I really like the oil fittings,,,,,that tee looks really cool in person.
I didn’t put the plier marks on it,,,,it was like that when I received it ,,Lol.
I plan on smoothing it out and polish the finish to bring it back to service.
The old stuff really makes me proud to see how it was done back then,,,,that tee is a beautiful little casting.
What amazes me is how tight that the tolerances were on threads and bolt holes.
Mr Ford really ran a tight ship,,,,, I have read where the Ford bolts checked harder than grade 8.
That’s awesome for factory bolts !

Tommy

 

Hey guys,,,here is a question.
How does the rear cam bearing get lubrication ?
I see that it does not have a oil journal to it.

I am assuming it receives oil that is bled off from the end of the oil pump area ?
Because I guess that the rear cam drive gears and idler receive oil from the end of the pump gear,,,,and that in turn has to go somewhere,,,so it would be forced into the cam bearing and lube it ?
Correct,,,,?
I know that the fuel pump shaft is lubed from the main galley.
But ,,the bushing only has a .060 thousandths hole to lube the shaft,,,,and then the shaft only has a a thousandths clearance.
I don’t think that would be enough to lube the cam journal.
And the rear journal has a diagonal groove cut into it,,,,maybe to allow the oil out of the back gear area ? I’m just guessing ?

The reason I ask is I’m not gonna use the fuel pump shaft,,,I have to block it off.
I have read where they suggest to block the bushing from the top to keep from losing oil pressure.
Any ideas ? Thanks

Tommy

 

Maybe you already did, if not I'd recommend wiping all the machined surfaces, bearing saddles with oil or Gibs also.

Sent from my SM-G973U using The H.A.M.B. mobile app

 

Hey guys ,,,I need some knowledge here.

I got some good water pumps,(for 40 bucks),,,,,looks really good,,,probably need rebuild though.
They were for 48,49,50,51,,,,,,you know,,,they were listed that way.
The pics looked great,,,and the pumps look super good,,,I am very pleased with them.
The only problem is the pulley size.
My crank pulley is a 49 from the engine and it uses a 5/8 belt.
These pumps are 50 or 51,,,,they have 3/8 pulleys.

Since I was gonna rebuild them anyway,,,,is it a good idea to change the pump pulleys,,,or change the crank pulley.
I found some pump rebuild kits for about 35 or 40 bucks apiece.
After I buy the kits to rebuild,,and pay for other pulleys,,,might just be cheaper to buy new pumps and be done with it?
Can I find 5/8 pump pulleys cheap ?

The crank pulley is sweet,,,,,and I have a 100 bucks in it.
Are 5/8 belts a pain to find ,,might be a good idea to switch to 3/8 ?

I am not to the stage of needing these yet though,,,I am just thinking ahead.

Tommy

 

For what it's worth, I'd recommend buying/finding new or NOS whenever possible. By the time you're done rebuilding old stuff, you'll be spending more time and $ and adding needless frustration. As far as cheap goes, IMHO, flatheads are never cheap, and finding NOS parts is part of the fun(?).

 

Hey Ritzy,
Yeah,,,I figure that if I can find some good pulleys for maybe 30 or 40 bucks,,,and then buy the rebuild kits,,,I could come out alright.
Otherwise,,I should probably buy new and then pass these pumps on to someone that can use them.
Any ideas from anyone is appreciated ,,,thanks guys.

Tommy

 

Tommy, there are more resources for NOS parts than you might think. Here are a few that I was able to utilize, but I know there are many more. Their NOS parts may not be listed on their websites, so you'll just need to call with the PN you're searching for. Surprisingly, I was able to find a NOS crank pulley and all of the components for the clutch linkage. It amazes me that those parts are still out there. Like many others in this hobby, I may start compiling spares, just in case.

https://www.joesantiqueauto.com/
https://reds-vintage-parts.com/
http://www.vanpeltsales.com/
http://marksfordparts.com/
Third Gen Automotive https://www.ebay.com/usr/1935fordtn?ul_noapp=true

Since I was not building a concourse car, I opted for new Bob Drake pumps. The pulleys seem a bit wobbly, but the originals probably were too, and they had the right size pulleys. Hey, they seem to circulate the coolant, so I call it good enough. I know my limitations.

 

Thanks Ritz,
Yeah,,it is amazing that so many new old parts are still around.
I just received an Nos crank timing gear the other day.
It is from TRW,,,new in the box,,,Steel,,,looks awesome.

Third Gen is only about 45 minutes away from me,,,,Mike is a very good guy.
Definitely plan to check him out as well.
Thanks for the info,,as well as any other ideas you might have.

Tommy

 

What are you putting this motor into?
Those pumps are from a car. You may need the truck style pumps. That style of pump uses a "C" clip to install in the frame, while the truck pumps have the larger belt and use typical biscuit style motor isolators. Most guys use pumps on the top row, you have the bottom right pump. The C clip bolts up from the bottom to the pump and then you bolt the C clip to the frame. The other have a more conventional bolt down through to the frame.

Unless you are installing the motor into a shoebox or a 50's Merc, I would look for the other style pump.


"C" clip is referring to

 

Also you have 2 different diameter pulley on those pumps, that could lead to some serious cooling problem.

Another work of caution here on the front of the motor. In typical Ford fashion, the correct crank pulley need to be paired with the pumps, fan, and generator mount. It is not like it a SBC where you have short or long, CW or CCW. There is a multitude of different combinations.

The best advise I would give you at this point is STOP buying front end parts until you are ready to install in the car. Buy what you need to fit the car and NOT just what you find today and hope it is the right stuff later.

Does that make sense? Unless you plan on stock piling a bunch of parts, use what you need, and sell remaining. That works too, but could get expensive.

 

Hi jr,

Thanks for the info,,,,,,at this time I am not buying anything for the front.
This engine will go into a hot rod in the future ,,,,so I will have to make my mounts.
Since this is my first Flathead ,,,,I wasn’t sure about the pumps.
I realized that the pulleys were different o.d.s,,,(4 inch and 4 3/4),,,,but I just assumed they were supposed to be since ford used two pumps,,,,I figured flow different from left and right banks.
The water pumps were gone when I purchased this engine,,but I have the original front pulley. I didn’t realize that the bottom mount was made different until I started researching this.
Like I said,,,not getting them at this time,,,,just trying to learn something that I can apply in the future.
Looks like from your pics,,,I will need the 8CM pump ,,,,since mine is a 49 Mercury engine.
Man,,,it is good to have some nice clear pics to look at,,,,,a picture is worth a thousand words.
I have seen truck pumps listed for sale,,and car pumps,,,,,didn’t know what difference there was.
Is the pulley spacing different on the truck pumps ? Would they line up with the car pulley grooves ?
Thanks for anything you can help me on,,,,also,,,the engine mount diagram is excellent as well.

Tommy

 

ALL the pumps are interchangeable as far as bolting to the block is concerned, with exception to 21 stud and earlier motors, so pre-1939. everything 39 and post are all the same mating to the block. The motor mount position, outlet position, sheeve count, size and diameters are ALL different. More than likely the pump with the larger diameter pulley was intended for a truck or a commercial application needing more water delivery, while the smaller diameter would be for everyday car or truck.

Make sense?

Most guys go ahead and buy the new Speedway truck pumps. they are new and relatively cheap considering cost of rebuilds, they are built like new car pumps with sealed bearing and they hold up well., believe it or not.

You will need to get the pumps that match you crank pulley.
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/1949-1953-Flathead-Ford-Mercury-Water-Pump-Kit-D-P-Side,379635.html

I am going to refer you to the drawings on the VanPeltes site for 49 motor
http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/FH_images/FH_engine-pics/Flathead_Engine_complete1949.jpg

notice how the pump pulley lines up with the inner sheeve on the crank pulley, here is the car 8BA pump, large 5/8 belt


Now look at the 41-48 version. the inner sheeve lines up again. difference is the 8BA has been pushed forward to clear the distributor.


So, if your crank pulley is 8BA and 5/8" belt you need the matching pumps. 8BA and 5/8" belt, that is the part number I gave you above.

 

the style pump above allows you to use the biscuit style motor mount isolators. Now when you build your frame all you need is a simple flat shelf to set the motor on. Here is the speedway version, use supplier of your choice.
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Universal-Bolt-Through-Engine-Mount-Cushion-Kit,1199.html

 

Thanks jr,
That’s information I can use.

And the reason I ask a lot here is because there are also others that read this stuff but never post or ask questions here.
Flatheads are intimidating to anyone that has never been around them,,,at least for me it was.
I am getting more comfortable with them,,,,but still learning all I can.
Thank you for looking all this up and posting it,,,,,this is what makes the Hamb great.

Tommy

 

Here is a good picture showing the different mount positions

 

When you reinstall the crank pulley, make sue to install the slinger on the correct way.

There is a spiral groove on the slinger, it sole purpose is to push the oil back into the motor and away from the front seal. If it is installed backward, you can guess what happens. NO BUENO.
I recommend replacing the front rope seal with a newer continuous one piece seal. you will need to remove the groove sleeve.

 

Not as simple as that. The '38 thru '48 pumps are the same, and then the block got a small water port at the top of the pump for the 8BA series. You can put a 38-48 pump on a late block I feel you put a plug in this small port, but no real need to unless you are switching all the front stuff over the 59A style stuff.

All the late style pumps will switch onto all the late blocks, but make sure to coordinate your pulleys and fans to match.

 

Here are some pics of my pulley,,,it is the original,,,from my 49 Mercury engine.
It has the sleeve made onto it,,,,it is still in good shape,,the spiral grooves look well and not much wear .
I am still considering what to do in that regard.
I like a good seal,,,,I can’t stand an oil leak.
The video you posted is a good one,,,and I watched it here a while back on you tube.
A lot of good info in it.
I assume if I go that route I can install a seal saver sleeve on my pulley to cover the spiral grooves. I have read from some guys here that they have not had any problems with the rope seals leaking. I will weigh my options when it gets time to do this.
I know I will have to use the rear rope seal,,,,no alternative.
And to be honest,,,the front rope should seal very well.
Since it is not subjected to the oil pressure like the rear main bearing lives with.
There is oil under pressure flooding out the back towards the seal.
The front doesn’t see this because of the timing gear and the oil slinger.

Good idea,,,,,?,,,,,always looking for opinions.
Please,,,no one stop from giving advice on this,,,,,I am always interested.
Plus,,,,a lot of people are getting older and passing.
Once they are gone,,,,so is their experience.
The internet is a great tool !

Until I got here a few years ago,,,,I didn’t realize how many different cars and engines had been made,,,and a lot of them have been out of business since before I was born ( 1963 ).
Just like the different water pumps for the Flathead,,,,I just assumed a couple different models,,,,Wrong,,,,lol !

Thank all of you for your help.
And thanks to Ryan and his helpers for this place !
Some day we will all be gone,,,,but maybe at least some of these machines will be Handed Up to the future .
Who knows what the future holds ?

Tommy

 

Hey guys,,here are pics after removing the “sludge trap “ plugs from my crank.
Worked out very well,,,they were in there good though,,,,it took some trying to get them out.
The first pic is the first throw,,the second ,,the third and so forth.
It did have some funk in there,,,,not nearly as bad as I was expecting,,,,but definitely a good idea to remove them and clean it out.
Just posting for the guys coming behind me,,,any info at all helps.

Tommy

Sorry,,just realized the pics didn’t load in order.
The top left pic is the second throw,,top right pic is the third throw,,the bottom left pic is the first throw,,bottom right ,,fourth throw,,,sorry .

 

Okay fellas,,
What are your opinions on camshafts ?
I will not need this for a while,,,,so any ideas at all are good.

All of the new ones I see are about $375 bucks,,,so with shipping ,,,around $400 total maybe ?
My old stocker is in fantastic condition.
All the lobes look great,,,,mic within about 5 to 6 thousandths of each other.
The oil pump drive gear is perfect,,,the distributor drive gear is perfect.
All the journals mic at 1.795,,,1.796,,,1.7955.

Would it be more cost effective to just have this one reground.
Clean it,,,Regrind the lobes,,,polish the journals ?
If so,,,,a good guy or group that does regrinding ?

A new one might be better just asking ?

Tommy

 

I had Pete regrind mine. I opted for the Isky 1007B profile. Price and delivery were good. Now I just get the engine finished. Lol..

 

Hi Ziggster,
Who is Pete ,,,I have probably heard before,,,just can’t remember.
Also. Is the profile a copy of Isky ?
Can he do other styles as well ?

Tommy