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Technical Gasser straight axle steering

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by RocktimusPryme, Nov 14, 2019.

  1. RocktimusPryme
    Joined: Sep 22, 2013
    Posts: 198

    RocktimusPryme
    Member

    On to the next issue. This is actually what I’m going to fix first. Like immediately so I can actually move the darn car.

    So to recap from my rear end thread. 52 Chevrolet 210. I’m told a 47 Ford straight axle. Has no steering right now. Attached are pictures to show what I have. The plan is to buy a universal shaft, whatever box is easiest, and link it together. Plan to run a BBC so modular is better.

    So given what’s pictured what is the easiest way to do this? I have zero problem buying new components. I’m an engine guy, this part isn’t my strong suit. If I can use some of what is there great, if not just tell me how to pull off the band aid the fastest. I know lots of gassers use the Vega box. Not sure how that applies here.

    how to mount the box
    Opinion of what box or column to buy
    How to attach it all.
    I’ll take anything
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Fordors
    Joined: Sep 22, 2016
    Posts: 5,372

    Fordors
    Member

    While I can’t help with the year of your axle I can tell you it is Chevrolet, as are the spindles.
    The Vega box is popular but I think for the weight of your car you might want the Saginaw 525, it mounts just like the Vega but is heavier duty. Do not shop price, for reliability and most importantly safety buy a box from Borgeson.
     
    Rich B. likes this.
  3. RocktimusPryme
    Joined: Sep 22, 2013
    Posts: 198

    RocktimusPryme
    Member

    Okay. how exactly does that mount in my case? And do I just attach it basically to the pitman arm hanging in the picture (or a new one but in that location). Is that basically all I need to do? Bolt on a box, buy a univeral column and buy a couple of U-joints and a shaft?

    BTW Im a visual learner, so if someone has some pretty pictures to show this to me I would be grateful.

    And thanks on the axle, maybe he said 47 chevrolet. I knew the spindles were GM because it has a Gm caliper on the one side. Not sure what exactly. Im hoping its a basic D52 caliper that got put on everything.
     
  4. ididntdoit1960
    Joined: Dec 13, 2011
    Posts: 1,030

    ididntdoit1960
    Member
    from Western MA

    set up for push/pull steering - to use that drag link location you would need a reversed corvair or mustang box......but look into cross steering it instead with a vega or 525 box - speedway catalog has some good diagams and all the parts available....
     

  5. You’re current set up with those parts is for side steer or push/pull.
    A Vega box or 525 box is cross steer

    You’ll want the engine in and an idea for exhaust because all that will be fighting for the same room

    78BDB4AC-CDA4-48E3-A6E7-6E613A750393.jpeg
     
  6. RocktimusPryme
    Joined: Sep 22, 2013
    Posts: 198

    RocktimusPryme
    Member

    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
  7. wvenfield
    Joined: Nov 23, 2006
    Posts: 5,580

    wvenfield
    Member

    IMG_20191022_152023.jpg Most go cross steer. They make an arm that will simply bolt to the other side or find one or make one.

    I was able to simply keep the factory box.
     
  8. RocktimusPryme
    Joined: Sep 22, 2013
    Posts: 198

    RocktimusPryme
    Member

    Thanks, I would like a picture of the passenger side so I can see how you did the double a arm thing if you have one.

    Also, just so I completely understand my options.

    If I used this
    https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/60754/10002/-1
    I could essentially leave everything as is right? Also I was thinking with that reverse steer box, I could basically mount it on the underside of the frame which would essentially free up space for the big block. Am I wrong to think that would be less invasive to the spot the engine will want to sit? Im having a hard time visualizing some of this.

    I understand most go to cross steer, and Im not against it. But is there a big problem with the reverse box, push pull?
     
  9. Fordors
    Joined: Sep 22, 2016
    Posts: 5,372

    Fordors
    Member

    Go to this 'site for some really good steering info- http://borgeson.com/Images/100th_Catalog.pdf
    Also consider these warnings from the same catalog-
    CAUTION:Corvair Steering Boxes
    Corvairs were rear-engined cars; this means there was very little weight on the front tires. The steering box used in these cars was a very light duty box. It is not recommended for use in a street rod with the engine in the front. Steering gear failure could cause a severe accident.
    CAUTION:Vega Steering Boxes
    We recommend a maximum weight limit of 2400 lbs. for a vehicle using a Saginaw 140 (Vega) steering Box. We recommend the 525 Saginaw box for vehicles exceeding 2400 lbs.

    The aftermarket, reversed Corvair that you pictured looks to be heavier duty, but does anyone know for sure? I would also try to determine where that Corvair box is manufactured, there have been many posts here regarding Chinese boxes not holding adjustment, bad bearings and more. I'll say it again, do not shop price on this.
     
  10. RocktimusPryme
    Joined: Sep 22, 2013
    Posts: 198

    RocktimusPryme
    Member

    I actually did see an image that started to make sense to me. So if I have this right I can mount a 525 box like this. Make one link over to the passenger wheel and leave the other existing link as is? I think I even have a GM pitman arm laying around that I could weld to the passenger spindle to make the steering link for the cross steer.

    C3E08B01-4E4A-4525-8F35-184120D166E4.jpeg
     
  11. wvenfield
    Joined: Nov 23, 2006
    Posts: 5,580

    wvenfield
    Member

  12. flatheadgary
    Joined: Jul 17, 2007
    Posts: 1,012

    flatheadgary
    Member
    from boron,ca

    i built a '49 chevy business coupe style gasser once with a straight axle and found the side steer corvair caused death wobble at about 35 mph. the alignment guy said the drag link was to short, so there is that. if you use the 525 box cross steer make sure the springs won't hit it on the movement up and down of the spring. also, why didn't you just have the end of the steering arm reamed so the taper would be right? welding on the steering stuff is a bit spooky. you could have just bought a new arm too. yes, just use the double eye tie rod. ford did that on some cars and trucks.
     
  13. RocktimusPryme
    Joined: Sep 22, 2013
    Posts: 198

    RocktimusPryme
    Member

    I haven’t done anything to anything. I’m just throwing out ideas. If there is a bolt on steering arm that saves the welding please point it out to me. Again, I’m a competent wrench. But steering modification is new to me. I rebuilt my entire steering linkage in my 67 this year but that’s all factory parts. Not the same thing.
     
    62rebel likes this.
  14. southcross2631
    Joined: Jan 20, 2013
    Posts: 4,413

    southcross2631
    Member

    This is an F-100 axle in my Morris Minor .Vega box Cross steer. Arms are from Speedway supposed to fit 37-48 Ford same measurements as F-100 axle. DSCF3575.JPG DSCF3463.JPG
     
  15. RocktimusPryme
    Joined: Sep 22, 2013
    Posts: 198

    RocktimusPryme
    Member

    Thanks for the pictures, I saw those arms for the Ford. Im being told I have some sort of chevy spindles, which makes sense considering the brakes. Does anyone know a bolt on part that will fit what I have?

    At this point I think I understand everything save for how to safely and cleanly setup the drag link from the steering gear to the passenger wheel. I want to do it with the steering gear forward of the engine so its not fighting the headers (as pictured above) so I need to be able to attach that forward drag link to the front side of the passenger wheel.

    Out of curiosity what it that strut device in the first picture on the rear drag link?
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
  16. wuga
    Joined: Sep 21, 2008
    Posts: 563

    wuga
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    SO-CAL Speed Shop Steering Stabilizer
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    Product Description
    Our stabilizer improves steering smoothness and eliminates the possibility of shimmy, which is inherent in early Fords designed to travel at much lower speeds than we see on today's highways. The stabilizer is now offered in gloss black or show quality chrome and comes with stainless steel clamps and hardware. Mounts from tie rod to lower hairpin or 4-Bar.

    "There hasn't been an early Ford style front end car leave our shop in thirty years without one."

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    President, SO-CAL Speed Shop
     
  17. wvenfield
    Joined: Nov 23, 2006
    Posts: 5,580

    wvenfield
    Member

    You will just have to measure.......In the above pic the box is forward also. (I have no idea where a Morris Minor box is supposed to be). It depends if you want to use a stock column or one like in the picture above. I wanted to stick with the factory column and box as my car is not going to be 100% track. I still will have turn signals and horn but there are ways to do that also on a set up like above.

    To do like above is probably easier. You just measure and and make your column to that size. I had to try a few arms off my steering box to get what I wanted. I'm nearly perfectly horizontal and straight across. I see many Gassers that aren't real concerned with that but running on the street, I was.

    The stabilizer is something I will have to consider at some point perhaps also.........I'm still not that far yet.
     
  18. RocktimusPryme
    Joined: Sep 22, 2013
    Posts: 198

    RocktimusPryme
    Member

    Im building a race car, but specifically for Drag Week so mine has to be plenty street worthy too. Im going to just use a universal column, they come with Gm turn signal switches.

    I was going to ask too for ride quality what is important in regards to that steering link. Does it need to be level horizontally etc. I see some 4x4 stuff that isn't while I have been looking at cross steer systems.

    The system Southcross has looks like probably the same I should do. I just need to figure out how to put that steering link he shows on my car safely.
     
  19. Fordors
    Joined: Sep 22, 2016
    Posts: 5,372

    Fordors
    Member

    You can get bolt on arms for Chevy spindles from Speedway but the arms you have don’t need to be replaced. I think your steering arm that connects to the drag link is part of the left side arm so if you go to cross steer you can cut that off.
    Your right steering arm only has one eye to connect the drag link so for cross steering you could use the Ford style tie rod end with the extra eye and connect the d/l that way. I don’t know if the Chevy arms have the same 7* taper and depth of taper in the eyes as Ford so you need to verify that.
     
  20. wvenfield
    Joined: Nov 23, 2006
    Posts: 5,580

    wvenfield
    Member

    You should be able to get an arm that mounts to the upper bolts that hold your axle on. You can see it clearly in my pic. Mine is rear but you will want forward like Southcross. And you will just cut off all the stuff on the other side.

    There are a ton of threads on here about how you want the draglink set up. I read I do not know how many. LOL

    Depending on your set up, your needs your engineering smarts (I am lacking in those) and experience I came to the conclusion that I was good with horizontal and straight across.
     
  21. RocktimusPryme
    Joined: Sep 22, 2013
    Posts: 198

    RocktimusPryme
    Member

    Yeah, Ill have to look at my spindles when I get home to look at mounting locations. I saw that yours would go the wrong way on my proposed setup. I know I could make something, but I agree that fabrication with steering can get a bit sketch. i would for sure feel better with large cast parts bolted on if at all possible.
     
  22. wvenfield
    Joined: Nov 23, 2006
    Posts: 5,580

    wvenfield
    Member

    The one on Southcross goes in the direction you want and you should be able to get something like that to fit yours. Many have used that set up.
     
  23. Desmodromic
    Joined: Sep 25, 2010
    Posts: 571

    Desmodromic
    Member

    Stock Morris Minors (Post #17) have independent front suspension, with rack and pinion steering, so are not relevant here.

    Drag link steering is not the best choice for parallel spring suspension, as the rotation of the axle is not well defined, worst so if the springs are long and/or have few leaves (light car, or supplemented by coil-over-shocks). If the car has front brakes, application of the brakes will rotate the axle, which in effect pushes or pulls on the steering arm, turning the front wheels. Also, it is difficult to design for "no bump steer". On bump, the axle rotates more-or-less around the non-shackled end of the spring, which is where the steering box end of the drag link should be located. Many old cars had the non-shackled end of the spring on the front, which really aggravates the bump steer potential (unless the steering box was also ahead of the axle).

    Most solid axles are designed for tie bar across behind the axle, with regards to Ackerman effect. If the tie rod is ahead of the axle, the steering arm on each wheel must be splayed outwards to retain proper Ackerman. (Some road-race cars, e.g., Formula 1, were designed for anti-Ackerman geometry to optimize high speed cornering, but that's another subject. They were not opposed to replacing the tires every hundred miles or so.) Alternately, the steering box and its cross-link can be located ahead of the axle, to a separate steering arm, and the wheel-to-wheel tie rod left behind the axle, if interference with the motor is not a problem (usually motor is high in a Gasser). Looks like Post#14 has this arrangement.
     
  24. RocktimusPryme
    Joined: Sep 22, 2013
    Posts: 198

    RocktimusPryme
    Member

    Right, which is how I think mine will work best too. It already has the drank link behind the axle, so now I just mount the steering box in the forward position, run a drag link across and all other components should function as is. In my case my hurdle (other than mounting geometry) is seeing if I can easily fit that readily available Ford spindle steering arm onto my GM spindles. When I get home I will take a close look and see what I think will work.
     
  25. southcross2631
    Joined: Jan 20, 2013
    Posts: 4,413

    southcross2631
    Member

    I mounted my steering box as far forward in the frame as possible so I could have a straight shot to the right front wheel. Since the Morris Minor is a unibody car with struts and rack and pinion steering.
    I had to fabricate everything including the frame. I used a universal hot rod column from Speedway and double D shaft u joints to connect to the box.
    Just measure across the bolts that hold your caliper brackets to the spindles. Look in the Speedway catalog the measurements are shown . Just pick out the one that fits yours . You only need one. My axle has metric GM calipers and rotors. Don't know where the kit was from. They were on the axle when I got it.
    The steering stabilizer is from a Volkswagon beetle. Ordered it off Amazon for 30 bucks cut the curved end off and got a 3/8 heim joint . drilled it on both sides and welded it on the shaft.
    Got that idea from Quain Stott. That's how he does all of the SEGA cars he builds. The bracket to attach it to the axle is a piece of 1/4 inch plate drilled and installed on the axle u DSCF3468.JPG bolt. Then a u shaped bracket holds the stabilizer body end which was welded to the mounting plate.
    The car steers great . I have 7 1/2 degrees of caster . I wanted the steering to be a little slow because of the 87 inch wheelbase. I have had the car to 104mph in the 1/8th mile and it tracks straight and true.
     
  26. RocktimusPryme
    Joined: Sep 22, 2013
    Posts: 198

    RocktimusPryme
    Member

    Cool, Im loading up my speedway inbox now, that said, one the one steering arm Ive seen it didnt actually have a measurement listed. (The same one you have I think)

    I think ours will be close to the same, I like that stablizer strut idea. Mine, it looks like the box will go on the outside of the frame though based on the hole for the steering wheel. I also think Im going to try and convert to a firewall mounted brake booster like you have. Mine is a larger car though so maybe Ill have a little more room to work with.

    Edit: I did just find a bunch of speedway arms that have the bolt center to center distance. Looks like you have to buy both when I only need one but thats fine.
     
  27. Speedway makes flat plate arms for '49-'54 Chevy spindles, check the dimensions on their web sight, likely they may fit your earlier spindles too.
    I would take apart the ball ends on your tie rod and check for wear, I seen some of them worn pretty flat.
    Maybe get the right U-bolts and upper plates to clamp the springs to the axle; that thin plate and bolt arrange is not the way to mount the axle.
    Better to get everything checked out and planned for before you get too far into it.
     
  28. RocktimusPryme
    Joined: Sep 22, 2013
    Posts: 198

    RocktimusPryme
    Member

    Yeah Ill definitely investigate the linkage and might just replace out of hand. As for the ubolt setup, I have no idea what it should look like, so if you can point me to the part I shold buy to replace I would be happy to look into it.
     
  29. Check the axle to spring mounting in the pictures posted to this thread by southcross2631 and wvenfield; should point you in the right direction.
     
  30. RocktimusPryme
    Joined: Sep 22, 2013
    Posts: 198

    RocktimusPryme
    Member

    Yeah I see them. The problem I’m having is I don’t know what that “hat” looking thing that sits on top of the leafs and position the u bolts is called. So I’m having a hard ti,e getting google to spit out what I want it to lol.

    Looking at the speedway straight axle kits, they dont even have a top plate. Its just two ubolts going to opposite way that my springs are and a centering bolt. Would mine be better if I simply reversed the U-bolts?
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019

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