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Hot Rods Flathead build advice needed

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Desoto291Hemi, Oct 22, 2019.

  1. Hi guys,
    I need some advice on the direction I need to go in my search for a Flathead.
    Please only give constructive advice as I am completely helpless in regards to these engines.

    I need to know what I should look out for while inspecting a potential candidate.
    I have a line on a Mercury,,,just don’t know for sure yet. Any defects I should obviously watch out for? This is a complete engine,,,V8,,,,seems to be in excellent condition.
    About what is the going price,,,,I just want to be fair to myself as well,,,and not overpay.
    At least not a crazy amount,,,,Lol.

    Should this deal not work out,,,I still need all the help I can get,,,,so all engines will be considered.
    I just don’t want to get took,,,,I know that a lot of stuff can hide inside,,,,I just need some pointers.
    It seems to be recently pulled,,,almost looks original from the few pics I have seen.

    Thanks everybody,,, I know the Hamb knows ,,,,that is why I came here first!

    Tommy
     
  2. if you cant hear and see it run, pull the heads and look for cracks between the valves and bolt holes or water ports. look to see if it has adjustable valves in it. if it will spin over ect, ect. The biggest issue is cracks in the deck surface. sometimes little hairline ones between the head bolt holes and the water ports are ok, but not always.

    If it does not run, or if it is from some one that I don't know well then I consider it a core for a full rebuild. That caps the price at about $400 for me, depending on what it is and how complete. I have bought plenty of $400 dollar complete 255 Merc motors, so don't let anyone try and scam you for more. If doing a full flat head build, I usually expect to have to buy 3 or 4 blocks before I get a usable one. After hot tanking and cleaning sometimes those cracks that weren't there before like to show up.
     
  3. You will want to Magnaflux and/or pressure check any block before you put much money into it. It may require that you purchase several engines before you find a good block. Try to make a deal with the seller to get your money back if the block has cracks which cannot be easily repaired.
    It is better to pay more for a known good block rather than end up with a pile of cracked blocks which were bargains.
     
  4. Flathead Dave
    Joined: Mar 21, 2014
    Posts: 3,959

    Flathead Dave
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from So. Cal.

    Always hear it run and pull the heads. Don't let them tell you that it ran when it was pulled. Walk away if they don't want to do either one.
     
    Boneyard51 and Desoto291Hemi like this.

  5. belair
    Joined: Jul 10, 2006
    Posts: 9,013

    belair
    Member

  6. Bel air,
    More money goes without saying,,,Lol.
    That is why I wanted to check with the smart guys here first,,,I didn’t want to make a huge mistake and then ask for advice.
    But,,,I still need all the help I can get!

    Yes,,,it’s a 255,,,from the pics it looks awesome inside,,,,,so,,,is 600 bucks too much?
    It’s complete,,,intake to oil pan,,,no distributor.

    Tommy
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
  7. hotrodrhp
    Joined: Sep 19, 2008
    Posts: 446

    hotrodrhp
    Member
    from Wisconsin

    Went through the same issues finding a decent flathead for my AV8 build. Went through several blocks and either they were cracked or over bored to the max. Rebuilding flathead engines can be pretty expensive . It's usually suggested to pressure test and magnaflux any questionable blocks.
    I finally found a private builder that had over 50 years experience and bought a complete engine with test stand hours on it only. He ran the engine for me to verify it didnt over heat and had great oil pressure so I lucked out. Guess I was lucky but if your patient and scour the web and ask around you may have similar luck. Good luck with the build
     
  8. Do you feel if I can get it for 600,,with a guarantee that I can return it ,,,I would be okay?

    Tommy
     
    Boden and belair like this.
  9. carolina chevrolet
    Joined: Nov 14, 2018
    Posts: 197

    carolina chevrolet
    Member

  10. Okay,,,if this deal goes through,,,,should I,,,,,?

    Immediately disassemble and clean the block.
    Take to my machine shop guys and have them mag and pressure check?
    That way,,if it fails,, I can immediately return it and get my money back .
    Good plan,,,?
    Are the most likely places to be cracked in the deck area bolt holes?

    Should I look for anything else during the tear down?
    Any crank issues to be aware of?
    Piston ,,,rod issues?
    Oiling issues,,,oil pump?
    I will document the tear down and bag all the pieces for reference.

    Tommy
     
  11. The problem is that many of the motors that were running and not leaking will have cracks that show up after hot tanking. the block needs to be stripped bare, hot tanked, the cooling jackets cleaned out thougly, then maginfluxed and pressure checked. All those thing add up quick and you could have 5 or 6 hundred bucks (depending on how your machine shop charges) in the check out a block before you have even started any of the real rebuild work.

    It is not cheap to build a flat head, but in reality its not that much more than doing say a big block chevy or anyting other than a small chevy really. People tend to compartmentalize everything, so when the see the bill for getting a freash flat head block at 2500 to 3000 bucks with all parts, machine work, valve work and assembly the get a little uptight, and think "dam I only spent $1500 on that 350 chevy short block to get redone..." that's true, but the small block parts are cheaper and the key phrase here is SHORT BLOCK.... With a small chevy you still have at minimum 600 bucks to go with rebuilding heads, or up to $1500 for aftermarket heads depending on how crazy you want to go. plus you still have rockers and push rods and rocker covers.

    So say you have 1500 in a small chevy short block, plus 1000 bucks in heads and valve train to put on top of it. That's 2500 bucks right there. When you do a flat head, its both the short block and the valve train all done at the same time. So that $2500 to $3000 for a flat head is not far off from building a small block. For mea the real place that flatheads eat up money is in finding good cores. if you have to buy three $400 dollar motors just to get a good block, now you are up to 1200 bucks before you have even started. Carefull selection of a core motor is key building a flat head with out it costing a fortune.

    That being said, I built a 283 for my 39 all built to 62 corvette with a 2x4 specs and it cost me about 2100 bucks total, and it will walk all over a most flat heads...just saying.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2019
  12. The op is asking the right questions (and getting correct responses).
    Bottom line it's a crap shoot/gamble when buying a flathead that isn't in a vehicle/test stand.
    Occasionally a running flathead will come up for sale, albeit for more money, but in the end worth it.
    Considered buying the whole car (talking cheap, rusted out non desireable) for the engine?
    Good luck.
     
    Desoto291Hemi likes this.
  13. do some reading http://www.vanpeltsales.com/

    are you looking at a 40-48 year block or 49-53 block? It make a difference. Earlier blocks are prone to cracks in the deck and along the pan rails. Pan rail cracks are the death of the block while some deck cracks are acceptable. later block seem to have addressed the cracks in the pan rails while they seem more prone to cracks in the deck.

    Look for adjustable lifters. Having the adjustable lifters will save you some head ache later.

    Look for block reliefs and port polishing. these would be considered performance improvements.

    Can you post up some pictures?
     
    Desoto291Hemi likes this.
  14. Yeah I have been to Vanpelts site already,,,,,a lot of cool knowledge on there.
    I need all the help I can get,,,.

    It is supposed to be a 49 engine.
    The casting # on the back of the block is E 294 .
    The heads have D149 and D4 9 on them,,,with 8CM,,,,and Mercury below that.
    I never thought about the pan rails,,,,I will add that to the list for my machine guy to check.

    From what I can see,,,there is no modification to the ports or valve areas.
    There is even some fresh looking carbon on the pistons and chambers.
    Hope I get lucky,,,the cylinders good great!

    And I didn’t think that 3000 would be too much for a build,,,,I am hoping to be in under 5000,,,including the core. I hope I didn’t just jinx myself,,,lol.

    I will try to get some good pics soon to post here.

    Tommy
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019
  15. What helped sell it to me was the details that I saw.
    The water pumps had been removed and the gaskets were still clean,,,not much time has passed.
    The water necks housings were the same condition.
    The base gasket for the carb looked like it had just been unbolted.
    No junk under the carb in the ports,,,just a little carbon.

    And the water jackets behind the pumps were clean looking iron,,,,,not a bunch of build up junk,,,just a patina of old brown iron., rusty but smooth.

    And the cylinders looked like it had just been running,,,no rust buildup at all .

    You guys keep your fingers crossed for me.

    Tommy
     
  16. Rather have the hemi, but...:). It sounds like you have the heads already removed. IF so, turn the crank one full revolution and measure from TDC to BDC. If 4" you got a 255 Merc. IF 3 3/4", its a 239 Ford. Wire brush the block around the valves and cylinder. If you see cracks between the valve seats and cylinder, its possible to repair, then sleeve that cylinder-pricey. If you see cracks between a head bolt hole and water jacket, the folklore says they're so common, Ford gave them a part #. My 8BA Ford had two of them, never an issue.
    If the crank webs are cracked or the pan rails, its a boat anchor.
    I've got another one under construction for a future project, but haven't got a total yet. Probably 3-4 K. It won't go as fast as a SBC or SBF, but it'll get way more attention if properly dressed.
    Good luck!
    RB
     
    Desoto291Hemi likes this.
  17. tubman
    Joined: May 16, 2007
    Posts: 6,914

    tubman
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I made a setup that allows a preliminary check for cracks to be done on an assembled 8BA type engine. Essentially, it is a plate that bolts on the head instead of the thermostat housing. This plate has a "T" fitting that has a Schrader valve and a air pressure gauge. I also have a vinyl cap that goes over the water pump outlet. Install both of these and pressurize the engine to 20 lbs air pressure. If it holds the pressure, it's a very good indication. The problems with this is that it works only with an engine with water pumps with good seals. If the pump leaks, I have a plate to put over the water pump opening after the pump is removed. Since the two sides of the cooling system on a flathead are not interconnected in the engine, each side can be tested independently. I have done this on several engines, and it has been correct. Maybe I'm just lucky, but it beats the hell out of disassembling and engine and taking it to a shop just to find it is fatally cracked. If there is a leak, I go a little further and am able to test each cylinder to see where the problem (if any) is, but that's a little beyond this thread.
     
  18. The engine still has some green paint on it.
    Part of the intake,,,,,most of the timing cover,,,,about half of each head.
    A strip of paint a few inches wide on the sides of the block,,,and a strip of paint on the rear area,,bell housing area.
    It is kind of a faded green,,,not dark,,,almost like a light green cast.
    The rest of the engine is rusty and dirty,,lol.
    Although,,after 70 years,,, I can’t believe it still has any paint left.

    Tommy
     
  19. Have you been to the Ford Barn flathead site yet? If not, you should...
     
  20. Thanks Warbird,
    I am planning on visiting there shortly.
    As I have said all through this thread,,,I need all the help I can get.
    I have a fair amount of knowledge about engines and drivelines,,,,but when it comes to Flatheads,,,,I am a child lost in the wilderness.
    Y’all please bear with me through this,,,I will try not to ask too many stupid questions,,,,but the only way to learn is ask questions and try to succeed!
    Sadly,,,usually when I made really stupid mistakes was when I didn’t ask for any help,,,,and after the problems arose,,,,people would say,,,,,”why didn’t you ask for help”,,,,Lol.
    There is an abundance of knowledge here,,,I will try to soak up all I can.
    And,,,I’m gonna try the Ford Barn too,,,,some of these guys are probably there as well.

    Tommy
     
    warbird1 likes this.
  21. fullhouse296
    Joined: Jan 30, 2009
    Posts: 404

    fullhouse296
    Member
    from Australia

    Ive dragged about 18 good blocks home over the years ,this is how I do it . 1.dont pay any money up front .2.pull the heads .3.120 grit sand the area between valves and bore till its clean. 4 .wipe a piece of wet chalk over the area 5,very lightly wipe away excess chalk with finger . 6.carefully inspect for cracks. If it passes this test ,do the same on the pan rails . If the block is cracked just leave it where it is .
     
  22. Vonn Ditch
    Joined: Aug 8, 2013
    Posts: 106

    Vonn Ditch
    Member
    from LA

    The best advice is no one can give you advice on a flathead engine. Here's mine though. If you are looking at only one block, it's cracked. If you look at 5 blocks they are all cracked. Ok let's look at 10 then. Bingo! your chances of finding a good one just went up exponentially. I'd say you've got a 75% chance you'll find a good one. Or, do this. Pay a reputable flathead guy 600 to 1000 dollars for a block that has had all the checks done, mag, pressure etc.
     
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  23. Boden
    Joined: Oct 10, 2018
    Posts: 747

    Boden

    It’s a merc!!! I would. Anyway. Even if u just get the crank it would be good


    Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
     
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  24. 6FAA77A7-C599-482A-B1F3-2267B3595406.jpeg 9784AEB0-A3AD-4820-8EEF-CC4C3BC08D69.jpeg 12AE73D6-6C13-4814-B39D-8346EE3C6093.jpeg Just got my Flathead this evening,,,took a few pics before unloading.
    I will begin the disassembly tomorrow after work.
    Send all the luck my way in hopes of a good block.
    It turns over effortlessly,,,smooth as silk.

    I will take plenty of pics and post as it goes along.

    Tommy
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2021
    warbird1 and waxhead like this.
  25. Cool....finding a good block alot depends on the donor veic as well.....some low mileage gems are getting their orginal low mileage enginges pulled for a late model motor....those would be the prime targets foe a good block...good luck !
     
  26. tubman
    Joined: May 16, 2007
    Posts: 6,914

    tubman
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    The four-bolt manifold, the 8CM heads, and the remnants of green paint on the engine are all real good signs. Over the years, I have found that truck engines and Mercury's are more likely to be un-cracked than most 8BA's. It may have to do with larger radiators on them, or maybe better maintenance when they were getting "long in the tooth". Or maybe it's just plain old chance.
     
  27. tubman
    Joined: May 16, 2007
    Posts: 6,914

    tubman
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Oh yeah. And keep the Mercury manifold if you are going with multiple carbs. They can be bored out and a small base 2GC will bolt right up. From my experience, that combination makes for the best street induction system for a flathead (in cars with hoods:D).
     
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  28. Thanks Denny,,,,I am gonna keep my fingers crossed and begin tearing into it this evening.
    I will post pics as soon as possible.

    Tommy
     
  29. B7EE5A61-2F6C-46AC-BC5C-A2E3C80C6964.jpeg 17F7D502-17C7-4567-A2E9-87ADCDF8A94F.jpeg 8C5890A6-C3EB-4C8D-8A83-95587F8857AB.jpeg C795988C-584C-4627-8E87-A5BB1F03E40D.jpeg BC74FE60-1E35-4AE3-823C-DD613A84AF07.jpeg 6F1FA758-25F7-4DB5-A319-54F24E9DA846.jpeg CE76BFB9-6AC0-4F51-B4E1-313F4090C86F.jpeg 19ECA320-987A-4746-AF3A-45278EB41466.jpeg Here are some pics from tonight.
    I took some pics of the outside and rear bell area,,,it seemed to be reasonably good,,,and looks like it had just been pulled from the car,,,that was one of the reasons I bought it.
    I removed the intake and the heads,,,I will try to narrate as I go.
    I might be wrong but the intake looked like it had never been off before
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2021
  30. E4E6A84F-E023-4FA1-9F5E-29CAA5AA9C6A.jpeg 159D21C9-7B71-41A8-B3FD-BFEB1601249A.jpeg FDC80217-9938-4419-BE9C-0BC6FDD3AF84.jpeg C7BFB31A-252D-4996-9466-816F29C75E97.jpeg 482F1FED-B9FD-4B0A-8110-382A68521241.jpeg 4088F2B3-8E3D-48E8-9B7C-EC910C74B185.jpeg The lifter valley looked really good.
    It had a rats nest of old cotton fibers in there,,,,looks like they had got in around the fuel pump opening.
    I shop vacuum,,,and got the junk out.
    Other than that ,,it looked very good.
    I found a horse shoe clip loose in there.
    It came from number 1 exhaust guide,,,so it had a dead cylinder there.
    The intake ports all looked awesome,,,had carbon in them,,,no rust.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2021

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