Yes it was Butch. The 69' Nova I have was run in AHRA Formula Stock and the guy I bought it from in 75' use to run there. The first time I went down to watch an NHRA Division race was in 81'-82'.
I looked at the classes I can & the E/S is still yet another mystery. The 64 GTO hardtop had W/P= 9.44 for 389-348-6v 2dr sedan "coupe" 9.50 for 389/348-6v hardtop 10.17 for 389/325-4v hardtop I don't know Olds that well but the Olds sure does look like a 71-72 version. Also, the car on the left looks like a 70-72 Maverick/Comet. So that dates the picture as at least 1970-71, maybe later. If this was AHRA, *in 1966* (the only AHRA guide I have) the "2" fits F-2 which is multi carb hyd cam (389/348-6v). But the "E/S" in AHRA F-2 means cubic inches CID=300-330, so unless it was a "326" GTO that doesn't fit. Maybe the 1970s AHRA classes were different. In NHRA, we have E/S=9.00 1970-71 this would fit if the GTO was a sedan/coupe. E/S=13.00 1972 no way. E/S=10.00 1973-up, that would fit if the car was a 389/325-4v GTO. But the early 1970s rules were almost pure-stock, street tire, closed exhaust, the car picture looks wrong and 12.35 would be way too fast. EDIT: Well maybe not too fast. I don't have much data from 1972 up, but in 1977, the record for E/SA=10.00 class was a 1972 Olds (w30) at 11.87 at 113.35mph. By 1977 maybe NHRA was back to open headers? In any case, it seems a 12.35 ET would not be out of line for the E/S=10.00 class somewhere in the mid-to-late 1970s. I don't know! The M/SA Olds fits the 1973-up theory, as in 1973-up, M/SA was a W/P=14.00 car. Now, after 1971, all the power ratings turned to "net power" so NHRA had to factor pretty much everything (even the Pinto, which did start to win in the 1970s). With TODAYS factors, a 1972 Cutlass 350 "sorta fits" into the M/SA=14.00 class so that all makes sense. The M/SA record from 1977 NHRA was 12.82 at 104.06 from a 68 Chevelle. I agree about the thread, it is becoming a great SEARCHABLE history of the era. One reason I like the comments on the pictures (car, driver, etc names) is that makes it searchable, which I have used many times in trying to figure out some details of this never-to-be-repeated era. I'm glad I at least caught the tail end of it in the 1970s.
NHRA allowed open headers in the "modern" era by 1975. At the same time they removed the requirement for a full exhaust system. Also, another look at the picture shows the GTO on what, to me at least, look like 9" tires. A "Junior Stock" era Stocker would have been using a 7" cheater slick. I ran in M/SA during the period 1976 -1979 and my car, not really a record-breaker, was capable of low 13's with an occasional dip into the 12.90s. I don't know either but it's a great challenge to unravel some of the clues. c
I have a 1973 AHRA rule book and it looks like the classes were based on factory HP to weight. It says a pre 1973 E car, at 3400 to 3799, would have to be 381- 400 hp. Blowing up the picture it looks like the tag on the GTO is for 1973 registration. Didn't the new age NHRA rules say you could use street tires up to 10 inches wide? also it looks like the GTO has open headers and the guy standing next to the car also has his ears covered.
The latter-day "treaded street tires" had a very low profile. They were probably a little wider than 10" as I recall, but very short. The attachment shows the ones that we used. They were made by M&H. The rubber compound was very soft. I believe that the exhaust could have "cutouts" but that the factory manifolds were required until the 1975 season. Also, in 1975 the rule allowed 9" true slicks.
Given the gas price 21.9c/gal it kinda dates the picture as 1960s. NHRA: The 389/348-6v GTO was in B/S=9.50 in 1964, 1965, 1967. The 389/325-4v GTO was only in B/S=10.00 in 1972, which doesn't really fit the 21.9c/gal for good old Sunoco 260 or the other cars. AHRA: My 1966 Rule Book scores again! I don't see an F-6, but F-6 was the class for hydraulic single 4bbl cars. Within F-6, B/S was 380-399 CID, so the 389/325hp GTO falls right into that. That would be my bet. Could be 1966 but I don't know how AHRA classes changed over the years. Pretty cool it's a driver car too with all the lettering all over it. I never really thought about it but the AHRA "cubic inch" classes result in some interesting divides. S/S 420cid and up: All the big stuff, but NOT the 413 Mopars. A/S 400-419cid 401 Buick, 406 Ford, 409 Chev, 413 Mopar. (And later, everybody's 400cid, Olds, Pontiac, maybe Chevy.) B/S 380-399cid 383 Mopar, 389 Pontiac, 390 Ford, 396 Chev C/S 360-379cid, etc. So the 442 Olds 400 and 401 Buick GS had to run up in A/S, but the counterpart musclecars, the 383 Mopars, 389 GTO, 390 Fairlane, 396 Chevelle, all got to run down in B/S. And the 396 Chev would be in AHRA B/S, but the 30-over "396 Chev" of 1970-up would be in A/S cuz it was really 402cid. Maybe. I wonder if the AHRA classes or the way they binned stuff changed by then? I guess for AHRA, instead of picking the car by a "weight break", you'd want to pick an ENGINE near the top of a "CID break", like, NOT a 400 or 401 CID or 260 Ford. The 396cid was a near perfect pick, or the 318 Mopar, etc.
LB, As usual another great pic but at least on my phone I can’t read much of anything on the car. I would assume that the missing headlights were for some sort of home-made fresh air intake setup but obviously without an engine shot we will never know. Regards, Randy Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
I wanted to be the first to wish Terry Bell a happy birthday today!! He adds a depth to the thread which I appreciate greatly. Have a great day Terry and thanks for hanging around here! Regards, Randy Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
Well that's a good surprise. Thank you very much ! I love this site and was a little disappointed when they deleted a couple of my latest postings but I understand. This is for the good ole days of class racing. Not the newer stuff. You can catch up with the new arguments and complaints on "Class Racer" though. LOL
I was recently hunting for details on the aluminum / cold air package for the 426 max wedge and came across this excellent link http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/memb..._Using_an_Old_SS_MOPAR_in_a_New_Class_1-5.pdf It's a PDF from Car Craft March 68 on the Mancini racing team. I was trying to find out if the cold air / aluminum hood was ever NHRA legal on wagons (or anything other than the 2-door sedans & hardtops the factory put out). In Doug Boyce’s excellent “Junior Stock” book, pg115 shows a Tritak & Morgan 63 Belvedere WAGON with an aluminum / cold air front end, and C/SA on the windshield, circa 1969 when the car was 6 years old so couldn’t run Super Stock any more. I wasn’t sure you could just “create” a cold-air combo that the factory never produced, although NHRA does list the wagons as legal that way in the current guides. In the March 68 Car Craft link, no reference is made to an aluminum-front cold-air WAGON option. Then again, in 1968-69, the Tritak & Morgan “War Wagon” ran better than a steel-body should have run, so maybe it really was a 9-passenger aluminum nose wagon legal in 1968 B/SA=8.50, 1969 C/SA=8.50 and 1970 D/SA=7.50? Anybody know for sure? Since it disappeared after 1970, I even wondered if the aluminum “War Wagon” combo was discovered in 1968-70, then banned in 1971 if NHRA realized the wagons were never built that way, kinda like NHRA banned Charbonneau’s 427 Fairlane wagon in 1971 because Ford never built any? Anybody remember that? I never knew much about the max wedge except that my buddy had one, engine only, circa 1990 or so. But in my ongoing study of NHRA National wins & records from 1961-1971, the max wedge is the WINNINGEST BIG BLOCK ENGINE IN STOCK CLASS! I didn't realize that til I started compiling the numbers.
The Golden Commandos and Al Eckstrand both experimented with the Max Wedge wagons. The picture that I have of the Eckstrand wagon doesn't show the front end but I'm fairly sure that pictures exist that show the hood scoop. I was not present when Ron Mandella bought his '63 wagon off the showroom floor at Milne Brothers in Pasadena but it has always been my understanding that a light-weight wagon was also in the classification guide in 1963. Ron's car was delivered with Torque-flight transmission, chromed wheels, Horsepower Engineering fenderwell headers, 4.56 gears, Casler cheater slicks and the "Stage I" low-compression 415 horsepower engine. As I recall, the P/W ratio was 8.70 and that was, coincidentally, the exact break between S/SA and A/SA at the time. When the remains of Ron's wagon surfaced a few years ago, it was reported that the VIN included the appropriate code for the 426 engine. The car had been stashed in a storage container in the Pacific Northwest for many years at that time. The original front steel sheet metal had been replaced with aluminum at some point although even that was removed before the car was stored. I've spent quite a bit of time trying to ascertain exactly how many Max Wedge wagons may have been actually shipped from the factory but information is scarce. One researcher, Paul Ceasrine, offered the most definitive information that I've ever been able to uncover. Sadly, Paul passed away several years ago. He stated: All twelve of the Plymouth Belvedere cars were: 'steel nosed' 6-Passenger wagons. all had 426/415 'Super Stock'{Stage 1] engines. all automatic transmission. None left the factory with any 'aluminum' components. According to the 'Regional Zone Delivery Book': Here is where the 'original '12' were shipped to; * Southern California (Milne Brothers) * Northern California * Montana * Iowa * Texas (Dallas Region) * Michigan (Golden Commando's) * Ohio (Columbus Region) * Georgia * New Jersey (Newark Region) * New York {Syracuse Region} * New York (Western New York) * New York (Southern Region, Tappan Motors) We never exchanged any information on the possibility that some Dodge wagons may have been similarly equipped. I do know that the combinations were "in the book" (Classification Guide) at the time Ron bought the car at Milne Brothers in the spring of 1963. c
Chuck, Thanks for the reply and detail – it convinces me that indeed the aluminum front was NHRA legal for the wagon, even though it looks like no Plymouths left the factory that way. I had wondered, how come the aluminum parts would show up so suddenly in 1968, and not before? Well, even though I type in that W/P=8.70 class break many times a week, it didn’t hit me until I read “8.70” in your reply. I realized, THAT’S IT. The break changed from 8.70 to 8.50 in1968. Well, looking in both the Dodge and Plymouth NHRA guides, any wagon with aluminum front will have a W/P of LESS THAN 8.70. That would push it up into the faster class, which was the W/P=7.00 to 8.69 class from 1964-67. So the only thing you’d accomplish by putting aluminum on your wagon was to move up into a class running against max wedge sedans and a few HiRiser Lightweight Galaxies. NOT a winning move, so the best thing was to leave the wagon all steel and run right on the 8.70 weight break as you said – a winning combo. In 1968, the class breaks changed, and suddenly, the aluminum wagon was a double bonus. The aluminum got the wagon down from W/P=8.70 to W/P=8.55, but also gave the engine “free” cold air, so if you could get your hands on the aluminum parts, it made sense. Actually, from 1968-1971, the national wins/records I have so far show that the max wedge wagon dominated that 8.50 auto class (B/SA in 68, C/SA in 69, D/SA in 70-71), but really only 3 cars show up and keep winning: Tritak & Morgan “War Wagon”, 63 Belvedere wagon 9 pass, 415hp Duell’s “Drag’n Wag’n”, 63 Dodge 440 wagon 6 pass, steel front, I’m guessing 425hp. Picture of Drag’n Wag’n in Boyce’s book at the 68 Indy Nationals shows flat steel hood Lyle Dokken in 1971, I’m guessing same as Duell’s wagon but have no detail or pictures. Near as I can Gonkulate, the aluminum 415hp 9pass wagon looks to be almost a tenth quicker than the steel 425hp 6pass wagon, so it’s not a slam dunk, just that constant edge, worth it if you could get your hands on the aluminum parts. Thanks for the detail Paul C provided on the 12 Belvedere wagons. In searching for stuff I come across Paul’s excellent posts quite a bit. I don’t know if he ever got to writing a book but at least we have many web posts as a valuable legacy of these cars’ history.
Question was Lyle Dokken from Florida? I know Wayne Dokken was drag racing in 1971 with his "Crispy Critter" car. I believe Wayne also campaigned a wagon during that same time period. I believe Lyle was Wayne Dokken brother but I never knew he was a drag racer. I met Lyle years ago one day when I was with Wayne he wanted to show me where Lyle lived. Jimbo
Oddly enough, although the combination was in the books, I have never heard word of any factory produced '64 wagons. I've discussed this topic at some length with Al Corda and verified that neither of the wagons he drove was an original.
Chuck and Jimbo, While searching all this (search on Lokken), the other day I came across the other Crispy Critter that Jimbo noted: https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/nhra-junior-stock.201085/page-405#post-11410532 I figured, ok, I need a car in the 8.50 class and no 2dr sedan fits that, so wrong car. And here we are, now with a picture of the Crispy Critter WAGON, which looks like the car (and year) when Dokken won D/SA=8.50 class at 1971 Indy! They didn't even give the year of his car on the sheet but it must be the 64 Plymouth "Crispy Critter" WAGON. With an NHRA-legal (todays guide) 415hp in there, the wagon has W/P=8.96 which is not a very good class fit. With a 425hp max wedge, W/P=8.75, still not great but better, still steel hood. The Al Corda wagon, with steel hood, won the next class down, E/SA=W/P=9.00, at 1971 Indy, looks like a 3-seat wagon with W/P=9.13. In Jim Schild's "Maximum Performance", he says that the only way to get the 425hp engine or aluminum was in a 2-door sedan or 2-door hardtop, but you could get the 415hp engine in anything. The current NHRA guide for 1964 agrees with Schild, but for 1963, today's NHRA aays you could get either 426/415 or 426/425 and either steel or aluminum in any body including the wagon. So, seeing the Corda 64 wagon WITH the aluminum scoop opens up another can of worms, unless the car was running in AHRA or something? EDIT: On looking at the Corda photos closer, both the flat hood pictures say E/SA. In 1970-71 this would be E/SA=9.00 class. The Savoy 3-seat wagon 415hp has W/P=3781/415=9.11 (or the Belvedere at 9.13) a good fit. The aluminum hood photo looks like it says D/SA, which makes sense. The 64 Savoy 3-seat ALUMINUM wagon, if legal, would be about W/P=8.73. If converted to a 2-seat wagon, aluminum would give W/P=8.56, a near perfect fit to the D/SA=8.50 class in 1970-71. Was the 64 aluminum wagon NHRA legal in say 1970-71? Today it is not, and it seems they were not built that way, and it seems by 1970, NHRA was getting MORE nit-picky, banning the Vette engines, early 4speeds, hydramatics, 389 superduty, etc. So why would they let in a "new" aluminum wagon that didn't exist? Then again, this is also when they let in Charbonneau's 427 Fairlane Wagon which also didn't exist from the factory, until 1971 anyway. Seems the rules were changing fast in 1970, let alone 1972 when it was back to iron exhaust in stock. This is great info, and Crispy Critter fills in a missing hole in the many "guesses" I am making in these old results!
After looking at the old photo's of Wayne's cars I was wondering if maybe Wayne drove both cars and only used Lyle's name on the entry forms. Lyle never seemed interested in drag racing or cars. Jimbo
I have owned a '63 Dodge aluminum car. I did a fair amount of research on it. I was, till now, convinced you could only get the aluminum front... battery in the trunk package with the 426-425 motor.
I'm realizing that there are 4 situations which SHOULD all agree but in reality do NOT: * What combos the factory SAID you could get * What combos from the factory you could ACTUALLY get * What combos the factory actually BUILT any of * What combos NHRA allowed you to run The classic for me, growing up Ford, was all the 427 Ford AUTOMATIC cars. Outside of a couple hundred 1963-64 Lightweight Galaxies LWG & Thunderbolts, about half of them built as automatics, you could NEVER get a 427 solid lifter Ford with an automatic (or in a wagon for that matter). And yet, most of Ford's 427 wins (other than the LWG and Tbolt cars) were in fact automatics - the ones you couldn't get factory. I think what you (alphabet) and Schild said is probably right - the factory max wedge 426/425hp cars were only BUILT as aluminum 2door sedans/hardtops, but the factory told NHRA that other combos could be had so that's what NHRA allowed, for 1963 models anyway.
When they were NEW cars this was true. Later NHRA relaxed the rules and what you see is what we get. Originally the 415 engine only came with the battery under the hood and no alum. parts. The rest is "History" !!!
It's always fun to watch the complexities of the classification system be unraveled, layer-by-layer, in much the same manner that eventually exposes the core of an onion and especially to watch it being done by the readers of this thread, people with a genuine interest in understanding how things really worked (and still work) in NHRA. Best of all, it's being done in the interest of finding the truth without a personal agenda or even a tinge of strategic edge. I am positive that there are people following this thread who have understood it all along (Terry Bell, Mark Yac, The Kentuckian, and heaven only knows how many more) but gentlemen (and any ladies present) THIS IS HOW THE GAME HAS ALWAYS BEEN PLAYED! If anyone is really interested in it, it's important to consider how the system came to be, the personalities and motivations of its creators, and the twists and turns that make up the history of Junior Stock and Super Stock, both "in the day" and until this very moment. We racers, as a group, are a graphic illustration of the old joke about the camel who sticks his head under the corner of the tent and eventually ends up completely inside the tent while the original inhabitants are standing outside in the rain. Very early on, Wally Parks understood the tendency of racers to push the envelope, seek out the loopholes, and magnify any tiny advantage, perceived or real. Wally entrusted the integrity of the technical side of the sport to Bill "Farmer" Dismuke. "Farmer," in my opinion, was an incredibly principled, highly organized individual who possessed a strictly linear view of the best way to establish the integrity of a process. From long before I entered the sport, the mechanism for enforcing the definition of "stock" was put into place. "Teardown," along with all the details and drama associated with it, was an integral part of the system. From the outset, great reliance was placed on the information submitted to NHRA by manufacturers and reinforced by the capacity of the NHRA Technical Department to enforce the letter of the rules. I believe that this was a sound approach at that time. Under this system, every year, the various manufacturers submitted specifications in terms of engine blueprint data, make/model identification, shipping weights, optional equipment, etc. to NHRA. NHRA's commitment to the process was to codify that information and establish a system and mechanism by which to keep order in the ranks. The fact that the eventual production process did or did not produce vehicles in accordance with their submitted specifications had no bearing on the Tech Department. If the "book" included models that were never produced, as far as NHRA was concerned, they were considered to be legal. On the opposite side of the ladder, if running changes were incorporated into the specs for any model and those changes were not properly submitted to NHRA, they were NOT legal. A case in point was an issue that I described a couple of weeks ago that involved the '63 Plymouth station wagon. A camshaft duration of 300°/300° was replaced in the parts book by a camshaft with 300°/308°. The original cam lost a lobe. Ron bought a replacement camshaft from the parts department at Milne Brothers, and we were DQ'd in the next teardown. On the opposite side of the question, according to people who were familiar with GM's experimentation, there were several hundred very late production 1968 350" Camaros equipped with TH350 three-speed transmissions but the data was never submitted to or accepted by NHRA. Therefore, that model was restricted to a Powerglide two-speed automatic. As it turned out that would have been a difference on the track of about .15 of a second. So, up to that point, the system worked. Evidence of the determination to maintain the integrity of the process is found in two specific actions. When it became apparent that theory was failing to keep up with practice, in 1969, a major revision of policy really tightened the screws. Plenty of us remember that time as a water-shed moment, when 283, four-speed '59 Biscaynes were banned because the T-10 was only available with a 348 engine or when a questionable interpretation of sedan deliveries as trucks had led to a proliferation of Hydramatic, dual-quad or fuel-injected hybrids. There was plenty of angst and recrimination for everyone but even that action did not fill the staging lanes with later model cars. Only a couple of years later, the slate was wiped clean and the modern era began without any cars produced before 1960 in the field. To return to the original topic, at the bottom of the deck, as it were, there has always been someone, somewhere in the hierarchy of every manufacturer, a person or a department that was tasked with the responsibility of submitting pertinent data to NHRA. Now, imagine, what could happen if that person happened to be a Stock Eliminator racer! A few pounds added to or shaved from a particular shipping weight could make a "dog" into a winner. The strange amalgamation of an Oldsmobile engine into a Buick chassis or a Chevy engine in a Pontiac and marketed in a limited fashion could turn out to be a real surprise even it had been in the book all along! A very respected Stock racer in both the Junior Stock and modern Stock eras once confided that he, while working for GM, had accumulated a file of car combinations and specifications that included enough data on such combinations to keep him in a position of strong qualifying for the rest of his racing career. That individual is long-since retired but, whatever the veracity of his statement, he always had strong-running, low qualifying cars for as long as he raced. Please understand that having that file did not automatically make him a winner but access to a file filled with good combinations and favorable specs had to be a big boost to morale during the cold winter months when one begins to question the decision to keep on keeping on. Hope everyone is still having a good time with this. There's always a bit more to be learned if we look under the right rocks and knock on the right doors. c
Very good post Chuck. Were you ever a school teacher ? Such precision on your posts make mine look silly !
One thing that needs to be brought to light is the fact that a lot of info regarding engines/body styles was sent by the manufactures to NHRA pre-production. A prime example of specs sent by Chevrolet to NHRA pre-production still exists in today's NHRA Classguide. The Classguide still shows a 1970 Monte Carlo convertible with various engine combinations. Looks like after the info was sent to NHRA, Chevrolet pulled the plug on building a 1970 Monte Carlo convertible.
^^^^^Very strange indeed^^^^^. I used to work with an E.R. Nurse, who's husband was an accountant with his own firm. Husband had a client who had ordered a new 70 Monte Carlo, and needed to get out from under it for some reason. So, Nurse and husband assume the contract with the Chevrolet dealer for the Monte. When it arrived, it was a 3 speed stick shift on the column!!! That did't really bother them, but everyone was amazed about the transmission and column shift. Car was also triple green; body, vinyl top, and interior. I am Butch/56sedandelivery.
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