Hot Rods Mopar Flathead experts needed.

I have the chance to buy a flathead and auto trans out of a 1956 Plymouth Plaza. I want to put a T5 behind it. The easiest and cheapest seems to be using the flywheel, clutch and bellhousing from a truck, and use the Langdons adapters. I have found an engine and trans from a 1949 Pilot house. Pictures of both below.
What I need to know :-
1. Will the truck bell housing bolt to the Plaza engine?
2. Will the truck flywheel bolt to the Plaza crank?
3. Is the truck engine going to be a 218?
4. Is the Plaza engine going to be a 230?
5. Will the Plaza head be a slightly higher compression?
I've been searching for a couple of hours but can't seem to get conclusive answers to these specific questions.
Cheers,
Stewart.

 

So long as both engines are 23" Dodge/Plymouth engines then everything "should" swap........but until you get both together you won't know for certain.......they, mopar used 3 flywheel bolt patterns, 4,6 and 8 bolts, and the car engine should be a 230 and head should be 7.5 or so.......57-59 were supposedly 8.0:1.......... what are the prefixes on each engine number, at least in theory that will indicate where the engines come from............what they live in at present may have no bearing on where they originally lived nor, if or when they may have been fiddled with in the past...........andyd

 

Manifoldsbymoose, try him

 

Thanks Andy. The Plaza has 40K on it and the new owner is having a SBC and a Mustang II front clip put in. A one owner car. So known history on that. The truck engine and trans is an unknown.
Cheers,
Stewart.

 

All andydodge said. He knows what he’s talking about. Looks like a clean motor. Might be a good one. Langdon will be helpful with your questions. With the T5 it should move you right down the road.

 

I have a 49 pilot house that has the 1950 upgrades, column shift etc... It has the original motor and the title shows the motor is 1950 ... It is a 218.
Just a good guess, you will need to look at the numbers to know for sure.

Far as I know, the 230 offered more bolt pattern options then the 218 on the crank.
8 bolts instead of 4. Should work for what you want.

 

Pickup truck may have a heavier clutch, flywheel and trans than a car (not sure but you could look it up). If so it will work but have logy acceleration. You could get a car flywheel and have it lightened on a lathe, an old hop up trick for whippier acceleration. Old cars had man hole cover flywheels so old ladies and grannies could make every mistake in the book, and not stall out.

 

There is so much misinformation about plymouth flatheads it makes me wanna puke!

The 56 engine is the best, best head design and internal components. Including cam. Yes it will have higher compression and an entirely different combustion chamber shape. DO NOT LET ANYONE TELL YOU THAT THE OLDER HEADS HAD SMALLER CHAMBERS!
This is not true. I have cc'd several.
Not sure I would bother with the truck engine. Unless your plaza has a fluid drive trans. I'm not sure on that.

Be aware there are several different crank shaft recesses in the flywheels. I can and will screw up where the starter engages. Ya there are different numbers of bolts, who cares. Ya can drill holes to make that work.
Quality engineered components makes a plate to adapt a dodge 833 trans and bellhousing. That would be my first choice.

 

1.The truck bellhousing will bolt to the Plaza engine
2. The truck flywheel will bolt up as there are 4,6,and 8 bolt patterns, but they interchange and I have done it. However at least some 218's have a different crank flange thickness than 230's so even though they bolt together, the ring gear depth is off for the starter.
3. Depends on what truck it was from it could be 218 or 230. Best to check the numbers at
t137.com/registry/help/otherengines/otherengines.php
4. Most likely but check the numbers
5.The Plaza head should not only have more compression but I believe they were designed to flow better around the valves. If you are thinking of a head swap be aware of the external vs internal water pump by-pass.
Lot's of info on the t-5 conversion on the P15-D24.com forum

 

you dont want that 56 engine ...... you need this Hemi ...
https://detroit.craigslist.org/okl/pts/d/oxford-241-hemi/6975237995.html
let me take that 6 off your hands ...
Nice Find ...X2 on info on the P15-D24 page

 

Is the auto trans a 2 speed Powerflite? If so, it could be used effectively with some higher rear gears, like in the 3.00 range.

 

One important point, the 56 has a 12 volt starter and 12 volt electrical system, the 49 is 6 volt. You want to use a 12 volt flywheel and starter (tooth count is different, 12v has more teeth). 55 -59 Plymouth and Dodge cars and Dodge pickup trucks had the 12v and flathead engine. You may be able to put the newer ring gear on the older flywheel but it would be easier to just find a 12v flywheel.

 

what are you talking about. Im running a 6 volt starter on 12 volt 56 flywheel just fine.
Am I missing something here Rutty?

 

yup good info DR.
Quality has no A833 adapter yet.
AoK sells an A833 adapter plate for Chrysler flathead 6s.

 

Couple of things the truck bell might clear and mount on your rear mounts on the plaza
The issue is the wide bell off the truck includes the Master Cylinder.
The truck clutch pedal and the linkage for throw out fork is very much truck specific and is different than a car style.
I gotcha on a T5 install onto the truck bell as its simple compared to a car style bellhousing, on a car its a little more needed to swap.
Go to P15 D24 and look for Ply Mouthy Adams and Don Coatney 2 experts one on T5 car bell swaps and the other on V6 conversions ...lol

 

@Rusty O'Toole .....small correction to your post #12.....Mopar was 6 volt system thru 1955 models, changed 12 volt for 1956.......as did FoMoCo and a few others.

Ray

 

If you are dead stuck on putting a t5 in there. let me help you out by saying to convert your truck to hydraulic clutch with a hydraulic throwout bearing. I think you will find it will be easier to mess with for the conversion. But I'm pretty sure Langdon has a list of parts or include such parts for the swap to fix clutch linkage for manual....

honestly with the 230 in there, get a rear axle from a 60 dodge, 3.23 is my suggestion for that motor, and rock out with stock trans. If You are dead set on a t5 you can keep the factory rear, it just has some weak points with the keyed rear drums, hence why my normal go to is 60s dodge 8.75 rears... even the X case 741 is a workhorse...

None the less show us what this is going in!

 

Adapting a T5 to the truck bellhousing is fairly straight forward. The S-10, v6 Camaro and Mustang T5's have input shafts long enough to make this work. You actually do not need an adapter plate.

With the truck bellhousings, there usually is enough material to be able to redrill for the GM bolt pattern, however, the top driver's side bolt usually interferes. When I do them, I take and plug it with a bolt, grind it flush, stake it and then redrill. Also, the pilot hole in the bellhousing is 4-3/4" compared to the 4-11/16" of the GM T5. I always make a a thin ring up that presses onto the bearing retainer of the T5 to maintain alignment.

The stock truck throw out bearing ID is 1-3/4" compared to the 1-3/8" diameter of the T5. I make up a collar that presses onto the T5's bearing retainer so that the stock bearing fits. The dodge pressure plates use a larger diameter bearing than the GM's so you need to use the original mopar release bearing. If you use the truck bellhousing, you have to use the truck release hub since it also fits the clutch shaft. That is unless you go to hydraulic which might be an issue because of the previously mentioned diameter of the bearing needed for the stock pressure plate.

You will need a new pilot bearing too. The stock bearing has a much larger ID than the T5.

If you have a 10" pressure plate, use Napa part # ND4201 for the clutch disc.



I agree that the 833 swap is a good candidate at they are much stronger than the S-10 T5. However, at least by me, they are harder to find and way more expensive. It all depends what you are looking to do. I have had a T5 behind a 218 for the last 15 years without issue in a driver.

Over the years, I have done quite a few of these swaps as well ones with the standard passenger bellhousings, feel free to get hold of me and I can talk it through with you.

 

All good stuff.
Here get ahold of George Asche in Fertigs Pa. 814 354 2621
Yes the A833 is tough but even the T5 out of an early S10 is tough enough.
8 3/4 way overkill for a Chyrsler Flathead 6. Heck a 7 1/4 can handle it.
Im running an 8 1/4 no probs
Listen if you want a T 5 or A833 get the correct car bell and all linkage.
Better yet get all of the car standard stuff and an R10 3 spd overdrive a bolt in deal.
Call George and/or contact Hitek Tim Kingsbury on here.

 

Yes you are correct on all.
Tge NWC T5 is a simple swap to truck bell.
However putting a truck bell into a 56 Plymouth maybe not so easy.
Car bells to T5 not as easy you need a plate or fabbing it yourself a little more involved.
The T5 also with a 4.03 1st gear and .86 overdrive should be used with like 3.54 and below.
I would say that trans would be best with 3.23 gearing, what do you think?

 

Wow, thank you for the replies and knowledge, I really do appreciate it.
This going to be a restart of a project. I was making a 26 Ford modified, but found the turtle deck parts, so now its going to be a roadster!
I want a flathead. I want a 5-speed. Don't want a Ford 4 or V8, and the Ford flathead 6 is too long. Not many other flathead 4s out there, and I've wanted an inline 6. That led me to the Chrysler 6. I think the 23" engines will work better proportionally in a T roadster. Started looking found these 2. The slightly larger 230 engine and the truck bellhousing I will need.
Going in for surgery tomorrow, but I'm itching to get going on this. There will be a build thread.
Thanks again for all the help.
Cheers,
Stewart.

 

Ah okay so a Hotrod project.
By all means the truck bell and a NWC S10 T5 will fit the bill.
Dumprat should be able to offer advice on a project like this.

 

Post a link to the build thread, please, if you start a new one. Sounds like a cool project.

 

Yes create a build thread or keep this going.

 

In addition, the ring gear tooth count changed to 172 in 1957 so the 56 model year was the change over.

.

 

I do not make an adapter to mount the trans at the bell......my adapters mount at the block so you need the late/matching bell as dumprat notes.

.

 

Wayfarer just how many friggin set-ups have you sold for an A833 swap?
A 58 or 59 dual purpose bell that works for V8 or flathead is reported to work with an A833.
Like I told you on P15 D24 you most likely have not been involved with a A833 to flathead 6 conversion.
Show us pics if you have so?

 

I have one of those bells, rt side hyd clutch. It will work, but not as is, because none of the bolt holes work. 'the flat spot on the bell to mount the trans is not tall enough. I plan to weld on the bell in the areas where the 4 bolts locate in order to have metal to drill and tap. The center hole does fit the front bearing retainer however, it bolts to my crossmember and the clutch arrangement will work with the hanging pedals planned.

Those are the reasons I chose it rather than reworking the original or using an adapter.

 

Okay thanx for the info on this.
Now with a regular truck bell and 4 3/4 retainer hole a plate is a must a does work for this purpose.
Myself and another Flathead Mopar Lover have been "brainstorming" on a good quality swap plan.
I hope to produce a prototype in the near future.
It would involve a plate that registers with a flathead truck bell and not just relying on trans and adapter plate bolts to make it work in a quality fashion.
Thanx again

 

The best tranz. Set up is the R-10 overdrive. It utilizes factory bolt on parts. I.e. no modifications. Once the vehicle is rolling you change gears without clutching. Start in second and let it automatically up shift. A floor shift can be fabricated.