Having a problem diagnosing an issue with a car that came into the shop for the front tires rubbing the front of the wheel wells. Background: The owner rebuilt the original front suspension with new bushings, ball joints, tie rods etc, using the original upper and lower control arms and upper control arm shafts. The car is also very solid and I can't see any visible signs of previous collision damage. The car does have a front disc brakes conversion that was done previous to the current owner and at this time, I have not been able to identify whose conversion kit it is. It is a smaller diameter rotor that appears to use the original spindle, and can use a 14" wheel. The front tire diameter close to the factory original diameter at about 25" . The owner claims that before he rebuilt the front end, the tires did not rub and were not that far forward in the wheel well as they are now. The suspension bushings, ball joints etc. were not wiped out but tired. It did have a slight pull to the right and off center steering wheel, but didn't steer terrible. So he then took it to a alignment shop an they were unable to align it back to specs, without the front tires going way farther ahead in the wheel wells, and then the tires hit the fenders. So the did the best they could, so he could drive it away. It now steers bad. So now it's in my shop to figure out what's wrong and make it right. The alignment that it came here with is roughly an 1/8 positive camber on both sides and 3/4 negative caster on both sides. The negative caster is making it steer bad. They did the negative caster to get the tires to clear the wheel wells. Since caster is set with the lower control arm strut rod, the tires are too far forward. The strut rods at this time are roughly adjusted in the middle of the threads. Desired caster is around 1 positive. If I were to put it there, I will probably run out of threads on the strut rod and the tire will go way under the front fender. I now this is getting long, but the more info is the better to help to figure out the problem. Where I am questioning is, are the upper control arms different left to right. They visually look the same. The owner is not sure if he got them back on the car on the right sides. I cant really see anything wrong with what he did. When I research replacement upper control arms, what I have come up with is all the restoration parts suppliers list different control arms for left and right but none of them can tell me what the difference is. The factory 1965 GM assembly manual shows one part number for the upper control arm assembly for left and right, and different ones left and right for the lower arms. The lower control arms are installed correct on the car.The Any help would we greatly appreciated from you guys. Bill
Years ago I converted my 67 Nova to disc brakes (single piston) that were from a ?69? Malibu, those are known to add about 1/2"/side on Novas, it did end up with a bit tighter tire to fender clearance but at the time I was using the factory 67 (only) 14x5" disc brake rally wheel that had extra backspace and it was acceptable. I do think the early Chevy II/Nova had a somewhat smaller front wheel opening though. (One of) the things that can help those cars is a lockout kit for the lower control arms, a few different vendors offer them, check out this link, should answer all your concerns. https://www.stevesnovasite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30143
Yeh Rich, I got interuppted part way through my typing. Here is a Google image search. https://www.google.com/search?q=196...UGX60KHXGHD6YQ_AUoAnoECA4QAg&biw=1280&bih=752
Are the bolt holes in the shaft symmetric or offset in regards to the distance away from the bushings. In the couple of pictures I found they looked offset. If so, that could possibly move the control arm forward if the shafts were installed backwards.
Upper control arms the same side to side and shouldn't be any offset in the cross shaft mounting holes. Don't know why Classic Industries would show two different part numbers. Lower control arms are different because of the steering stops. Will be tight clearance to front of fender even with the 1-1.5 + factory caster setting. Most disc brake kits move the wheel out 5/8" or so making it worse. Most of the Chevy IIs I've had ran a 165 r15 or 5.60 15 up front at just over 25" and cleared the fender by 1/8" to 3/8". Helped it out a little on some by putting a 1/2" or so spacer between the fender and support rod.
I don't think the holes in the upper shaft are offset. I have only been able to find a few pics of original suspension on the web and they aren't very good quality pics, so it's really hard to say.
I think the upper control arms are the same left and right due to the factory GM assembly manual listing only one part number for both. Why all the big restoration parts suppliers list two different part numbers for left and right, I don't know. All the ones I called and asked, said they don't know. I do realize that tire clearance in early Nova's is an issue. This car has a 165R15 tire, and with the negitive 3/4 caster it has now, it's almost hitting the fender. I also realize that disc brakes conversion will move the wheel out also. This brake conversion seems to have small diameter rotors with a somewhat shorter hub than most I have seen before. It also has 15" Draglite type narrow front wheels that will move the tire out due to its backspacing, which will also add to the problem. With that said, according to the owner, they did not rub before he did the suspension and that the wheels weren't that far forward in the wheel well as they are now. I also think that if I reset the caster to to get to, let's say 1 positive, the front wheel is going to go way ahead and behind the front of the wheel well. I also think there are not enough threads on the strut to to even get there. The strut rods are original and the bushings are new, and are installed correct. I think there is something wrong that I am missing. Bill
I think the upper control arms are the same left and right due to the factory GM assembly manual listing only one part number for both. Why all the big restoration parts suppliers list two different part numbers for left and right, I don't know. All the ones I called and asked, said they don't know. I do realize that tire clearance in early Nova's is an issue. This car has a 165R15 tire, and with the negitive 3/4 caster it has now, it's almost hitting the fender. I also realize that disc brakes conversion will move the wheel out also. This brake conversion seems to have small diameter rotors with a somewhat shorter hub than most I have seen before. It also has 15" Draglite type narrow front wheels that will move the tire out due to its backspacing, which will also add to the problem. With that said, according to the owner, they did not rub before he did the suspension and that the wheels weren't that far forward in the wheel well as they are now. I also think that if I reset the caster to to get to, let's say 1 positive, the front wheel is going to go way ahead and behind the front of the wheel well. I also think there are not enough threads on the strut to to even get there. The strut rods are original and the bushings are new, and are installed correct. I think there is something wrong that I am missing. Bill
Did you measure the current wheelbase? Did he state what brand or if he used offset bushings in the kit? These are radius rod cars correct? Did he install the bushings in the correct order? Did he reinsert existing washers that may have been used to correct a caster problem from old bushings? Does the lower control arm use a cam bolt for adjustment? Probably a Scarebird kit, uses 78-81 A body rotor and brakes that fit under a 14" wheel. I find most alignment shops, even 'specialty' shops can't wrap their head around anything other than toe. Even then, I've gotten weird looks when I mention they are doing an alignment on a car with no one in the driver seat... C'est la vie. I know radius rods can be a PITA at times, I would start there, pull out all the excessive shims/washers and see where the car sits with all the nonsense removed. Gotta get it back to baseline. How does the rod attach to the lower arm? Is it adjustable there or have some kind of plate that can be adjusted. Look for any camber bolts installed. Verify the balljoints are installed correctly, no shims, loose/bent fasteners. Verify the balljoints are standard and not adjustable or 'added camber' units. Verify the hardware is stock and on the correct side. Verify the car is actually square and level. Verify the rear axle is not skewed. Everybody lies. Not out of malice, usually out of ignorance. Look at the car and forget everything anyone has told you. If he changed the wheels after rebuilding the front end, have him bring you the original wheels that were on the car and check fitment.
If the bolt holes in the front upper shafts are off center in the shafts they could be flipped to gain caster.
If there is any rake in the car (tail higher than front) that adds to the problem of getting caster with the lower strut rod having to move the lower a-frame even further forward.
One thing for sure is there has been more time spent typing than wrenching. That would definitively answer the question.
Here's a matched pair that came off a big block drag car. bought the front clip for the like new Wilwood disc brakes. I removed the old bushings and ball joints but both identical and interchangeable.
My current car aligned to factory specs. Plenty of threads left on either side of strut rod bushing and about 1/2" between tire and fender (560 15 Firestone). Earlier cars have pretty much the same fitment to tire. My car has caster set the same on both sides but needs a bit more on the drivers side to correct for road crown and will probably be just almost touching after. Also, upper control arm sits at an angle and if the springs are excessively tall might be hard to get positive caster in it as the ball joint will be sitting more forward at ride height. Not cheap but Church Boys Racing has fabbed upper A arms that move the arm back 1/2" for more caster along with a Shelby type repositioning inboard (can't just redrill on a Chevy II) and taller ball joint to correct camber issues.
I will measure the current wheel base tomorow. At this time, I can't really see anything wrong done by the owner. I also don't see any offset bushings or ball joints. It all looks stock. The car has the same wheels and tires as before.
Thanks for all the great photos. You have pretty much answered my question if the upper control arms are different. I say they are the same Bill
Thanks for all the great photos. You have pretty much answered my question if the upper control arms are different. I say they are the same Bill
Have you looked a the lower control arms to see if there is anything wrong with them causing the problem.
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