My 1937 Hudson 212ci 6 cylinder engine came with 3/8” valve stems & guides from the factory when new. I discovered since I was replacing all the valves & guides I could instead use the later 1938 Hudson 212ci engine valves & guides which are 11/32” and thus save a little weight & valve train wear as well. Thus I purchased the 11/32” valves, polished them & had my machinist give them a light grinding of the 45 degree surface to make sure they were true and then do a back cut of 30 degrees. Since I was able to watch my machinist touch up the valves, I was surprised at how off (out of round) some of the valves were when he cleaned them up. I ordered up the guides today & hopefully will see them by the end of the week. This leads me to my questions; what prep & process is recommended when installing the iron valve guides? Do I install them dry or with lube? If lube is used, any recommended lube? I assume I need to ream them after installing the guides, is this always done or should I check them 1st? What’s the best way to check the guides after installed & what tool(s) should I use/buy? Should the guides be honed with a ball hone like an engine cylinder is honed? I was thinking of possibly turning down some of the guide which sticks up into the port to improve airflow, any thoughts on doing this? Their length is 2.5” and I’d been told I could go as short as 2” without an issue, since they are not at an angle. Anything else to know when installing valve guides “the old way”.... at home with the engine in the car? Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
I replaced valve guides on tractors and a 261chev. I drove them out. placed the new guides in the freezer for a day. and drove them in to the room temp head dry. never needed any reaming or honing. You need the proper drift to drive them in and out.
While I have never done guides myself you have to consider that you are replacing what is, in effect, the existing centerline of the valve in relation to the seats. You have had the new valves faced to assure their concentricity with the stem, but will your new guides be off center a couple thousandths? Even if they were dead on center you will still have to touch the seats up from their years and miles of wear. Maybe I am too concerned, but that is just the way I assemble an engine.
@Fordors said: Maybe I am too concerned, but that is just the way I assemble an engine. NO! You are not too concerned, centerline of the valve determines where it will 'alight' in the seat! Now, when installing valve guides, (brass or cast iron) it is always prudent to use antisieze compound when driving the guides into their bores. The driving drift must be the I.D. of the guide, at least 3/4" long, and the body of the drift 1", preferably. (Too small dia. drift will tend to 'swell' with blows, ergo, the large diameter) When reaming for the valves, blade reamers are available in the diameter of the valve stems. Reaming the guides is critical, just as the proper seating of the valves in their respective seats.
Well the reason I asked that, I got all exercised about this when rebuilding a distributor, new bushing needed reaming. Fluted reamers are a little spendy, for a one time use. Then somebody here suggested using a dingle hone, said they used one for installing king pins. Darned if it didn't work slick. A few passes using a drill and WD-40 and the new distributor shaft runs in the bushing like butter. Maybe valve guides are different, but. A little loose is probably better when it comes to valves?
It might work ok. He has his engine all together still, so it will be a bit of a mess to keep the hone grit and metal bits where they belong.
If your valves will fit in the new valve guides before you install them. Unless the bores they fit in are dirty or you warp them during installiation. they will not need reaming. I put them in the freezer and with a room temp head they require very little effort to install. Ive put them in A H farmall a 200 farmall and a M farmall in addition to a 235 chev. and no reaming needed. and I used new valves.
"Concerned", It's more of an anal issue with me as I've always taken my engines pretty seriously, at least more than many here, hell, I have an NOS set of 67 dated Chevy camel hump 2.02's that came with new GM valves, all never assembled, before they were assembled I had the valves and seats professionally touched up because mass production machine work is only good through the warranty. Granted, they were only off a little, but now I don't have to give it a thought, they are within my expectation of what's "passable". I hate doing things twice".
Old Wolf: I like your freezer idea! Fordors: Your absolutely correct! The new valves alignment will be based upon the new guides. Thus after installing the new guides, then I will do the seat work in the block. This will allow the seats & valves to align perfectly. Mike: I hadn’t thought of using anti seize but when I’m long gone, the next caretaker will be thankful! My machinist know how much reaming is needed by touch, but then he has many decades of experience & this is my 1st. He also likes to berry hone the guides after all is installed to help keep the guides lubricated. Either way I’ll be checking things & doing the reaming if needed. Squirrel: You know my woes with this engine! Yes, the engine is still in the car with the crank & cam in it, pretty much everything else is out of it. It definitely isn’t the best method, leaving the engine in the car. However, I am doing my absolute best to remove all the metal pieces from honing the cylinders, porting the intake & exhaust plus the soon to come guide work. Question: when speaking to my machinist a while back he suggested I trim the guides down to the boss in the port, to increase the flow. Has anyone done this? If so any suggestions on doing it? Here’s the port work I did on the exhaust, very smooth. The intake I shaped but left the surface rough to help with atomization. Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
yes you can trim the guides and that will increase flow. however you now have less guide that the valve stem contacts and it might wear out faster?
"Since I was able to watch my machinist touch up the valves, I was surprised at how off (out of round) some of the valves were when he cleaned them up." So whose valve facing machine is out of true... the valve maker's, or your machinist's?
I was taught l-o-n-g to double check my chucking if a valve seemed to be way off. More than once just loosening the chuck and rotating the valve a little improved the out of round indication. Speck of something on the chuck jaw, valve stem or who knows what.
If the shop is too far from the freezer dry ice works well to chill the guides. This is a proper drift for a 11/32 valve guide. This one hides out in my tool box.
https://goodson.com/ check here for tools. Ive never done guides but have purchased a few specialty tools from goodson over the years.
For street use I don't think I would shorten them, in the interest of accuracy and longevity. Couldn't hurt to taper them in the area where they stick up but don't think it will make much diff to performance.
Old Wolf: I hear ya on there being less area in contact to align the valve & possible increased wear. I figured it was a risk worth taking and if the valves wear out I’ll replace the guides with bronze ones & find an increased valve size too. Heck I could actually go a step farther & have a billet cam made to reverse flow, making my exhaust the intake & intake the exhaust. However, that would certainly be quite the undertaking. For now I’m guesstimating even if I cut down the guides, for as little as I will likely be able to drive the old girl living in Montana it will likely never be an issue. (Hopefully!) Beanscoot: I had to laugh when I saw your post because I wondered myself that exact question many times in the past! I guess it comes down to “who do you trust”? My machinist has many Bonneville speed records & I’ve seen be a very detailed individual as well, so I’m having faith that he’s doing it right. I do believe there’s a way to use some Prussian blue on the seats & slightly rotate the valves to see how & where they contact or I could buy a tool to check concentricity I believe may also work. However, great point to bring up! KenC: good point on double checking the chuck. Yesterday I was looking at my old Dewalt boom box radio I use in the garage as it’s volume dial has become erratic when turning it. I found a guy had dust in his which caused the same issue. So after a few blasts with my air gun, she was back working perfectly! So a speck of dust or a metal shaving or simple misalignment can definitely play a role! Mr48chev: I was talking to Goodson yesterday on a guide driver (drift) & the rep told me to consider Dry Ice as a way to cool the guides since it’s cheap & available. Indyjps: I ordered their catalog last week since it was difficult to read the on line one on my phone. But they’ve been very helpful when I call, excellent recommendation! Rusty O’Toole: your probably right. The one thing that keeps me looking that way is that I’ve got a little “Tim the Toolman Taylor” in me. Which means I need to over kill things! Argh, Argh, Argh! Squirrel: your gonna laugh at this because you know my woes.... the guides arrived yesterday in the mail. I felt like a kid at Christmas opening up the box, the guides are all shiny & looking great! Then as I separated them into exhaust & intake piles I discovered I had 7 exhaust & 5 intake guides! Go figure..... ugh! Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
While I was waiting for Hagen Auto Parts to open this morning, I ran the same valve in each guide so I had some comparison as to how it fit & how it felt. I did find 3 of the 5 intake valves to have an issue at the edge of the center bore on at least one end. See photo below: the far side edge of the center bore there’s a slight dent. It is pushing just enough material inward that I can feel it. On other valves I could feel the end of the center bore on 1/4 or more of the edge as the guide exited. (One wouldnt even go threw one end.). Thus I’m assuming it’s a slight bit of material pushing inward from cutting the ends off. Hope that makes sense? I’m thinking I will need to do a slight chamfer on the inside bore at each end. Could I use a grinding stone like below? Can I do it before I drive them into place or at least the bottom end before & the top end after I drive them in? Having trouble uploading the images! When I load as an attachment which is my only option right now they are showing up as a locked image that I cannot even view. Weird!
WOW! Putting the valve guides in the deep freeze over night made the guides go in rather easy. I certainly appreciate your advice on that!!! You guys are the greatest! I did get some chipping on the top edges of the exhaust guides but just on the chimneys, which I’ll be facing back anyway. Since the guides stick up around 1” into the chamber, I plan on spot facing them back around a 1/2-3/4”. This will get rid of the chimneys on the exhaust guides and free up airflow on both intake & exhaust. This will bring the valve guide heights down to 2-1&3/4”. Since there’s no angle to the valves I believe it should be fine. Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
The same holds true with heads and cranks that come back from machine shops with grinder grit in them.
Good question Squirrel and yes, I will be cutting seats shortly. I was hoping to get my retired mechanic friend over as he has all the tools, knowledge & skills but in talking to him yesterday I seriously doubt he’d be freed up to get here before Christmas! He’s the go to guy for all the guys in town who own old cars but don’t work on them, so he’s crazy busy. Therefore I ordered a complete Neway Kit to do it myself. I called Neway & they gave me all the part numbers to put together a kit of intake & exhaust pilots, 30, 45 & 60 degree cutters, handle, case, and everything else I needed to do the job myself. So I guess I’ll be learning yet another skill next week! Finally, I ordered a spot facer to cut back the guides since I couldn’t find a way to do it after they installed with the tools I have. I’ll definitely post my results on the Hudson Forum just to hear the doom & gloom of doing that! Kinda like poking the bear....... Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
From what I've read, cutting back the guides doesn't seem to improve airflow... Air works in strange and mysterious ways. I don't think they had it figured out very well in the 30s.
This is the Old school way of doing it may not be the fastest but can be done at home. What’s not pictured it the box of lapping compounds and sticks ...
Haven't seen these tools since the mid-60s, when I overhauled my Dad's '53 Willys Aero Ace hardtop with the 161 F-head. Only thing I see missing is the "egg beater" valve twisting had drill that turned the valve back and forth. Done patiently and carefully, you get a great valve job.
Clover brand valve grinding compound, haven't seen a can of that in a long time. Loctite bought them I guess.
I’m no air flow expert but I kinda think of it like sticking your hand out the window as you drive down the road.... less obstruction, the easier air flows. Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
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