Technical 38 ford front suspension positioning?

Hi everyone , I’m currently building a 38 ford panel truck with a 38 deluxe front sheet metal and have come across a problem while mocking up...

When positioning the sheet metal the front wheels don’t line up with the center of the front fenders , they are about 5.5 inches back, as shown in the picture below.



Now as this is my first build my knowledge is rather limited , but the guy helping me has suggested moving the the front cross member and axle forward to line up with the center of the fender.
Now can anyone see any issues with me doing this or any problems that could happen please and is this the correct thing to be done to get around this issue.

Thanks , Benedict

 

Do you know if the wheel base for the 1938 OEM De Luxe and Panel truck were
originally the same?. Could it be the DeLuxe front sheet metal fenders are different from the 38 panel
truck fenders and are not interchangeable?

 

Same frame as the 38 ford deluxe , 112” wheel base , the hood and hood sides fit perfectly, and I have the lower cowl sections from a 38 deluxe to fit on the panel truck, that’s all that is different.

 

Can you take a photo of your front suspension for me? I’ve got a bunch of questions that a photo may answer

 

You need a picture from the side without the wheel being turned. Regardless, it would be ten times easier to redo the wheel opening than mess with the suspension.

 

I agree with @19Fordy, I think the problem is using front sheet metal for a passenger vehicle on a Commercial Car body. The wheelbase is the same but the Delivery front sheet metal is more blunt with the wheel wells in a different position, as well as the grille. It is probably a result of the cab being shifted forward for more cargo room.

 

It may be more work to move the axle forward, but I think that would be more visually appealing than re-working the fender opening.

 

If this truck is a spring in front of the axle, a switch to a spring over axle might solve the problem. Like always, some re-engineering required.

 

@38nailhead ..... This front sheet metal swap has been performed many times on pickups from that era without wheel opening issues. Several threads/posts on the subject.

It’s obvious something is wrong here. I think it’s a wheelbase issue. The chassis dimensions ahead of the firewall have to accommodate the same power train in either passenger or commercial configurations. That includes the position of the wishbone and it’s length and attachment to the X member.

Did you get the truck with it’s original front end sheet metal in place? And, if so, did everything line up with that setup? If the sheet metal wasn’t in place, it might suggest the wheelbase of the chassis is an issue......in this scenario........IF the chassis is not original to the truck, but the body was dropped onto a chassis with a shorter wheelbase than that Panel Truck requires, the ‘builder’ may have just set the body in place on the chassis aligning the rear wheel opening with the rear axle. That would result in what you have.....not enough chassis at the front of the truck.

I question the accuracy of your statement that 112” is correct for this body style, though you may in fact have a 112” WB chassis under it. Check it out further.

“EDIT”. I want to point out that there is a difference between Sedan Delivery models and Panel Trucks. They are not the same. The Sedan Delivery is passenger car based, as are 1/2 ton pickups, using the same chassis. But after posting the ‘theory’ above, I googled ‘38 Ford Panel Truck chassis specs. There is a one ton Express listed at 122” wheelbase.....the difference in wheel placement vs fender opening appears to be about that 10” difference.

Ray

 

I still think the difference is a forward shift of the cab, the upper photo is a Panel Delivery firewall and the lower is a passenger car.
@Hnstray...true, there were different wheelbases on Panel Deliveries but the lightest (shortest) Model was the 112” version, the same chassis as a 1/2T pickup or car. Ford also built 134” trucks with a much heavier frame and suspension, and in addition there was the newly introduced one ton ‘38 Panel. That one came on a 122” wheelbase.

 

@Fordors .......it seems you are using the term Panel Deliveries as though any such body style is essentially the same as the others. I think there is a definite distinction between “Sedan Delivery” (passenger car based) and Panel Truck (as the name implies...truck based). The body shells are different.

I do not understand what you wish to illustrate with the two under hood photos in your post. What specific years and body models do they represent?

In general, I disagree with the idea the “cab is moved forward” on some models (other than COE, of course) as an explanation of the OP’s dilemma. Until a better and convincing explanation is offered, I have to believe that body has been fitted to a shorter wheelbase chassis than it was originally attached to. I am not an authority on old Fords, but over many decades I have been around a lot of them, passenger and truck, and have never seen a short nose version.

Ray

 

I agree that there are two types of Deliveries, the Sedan which always has one rear door and the Panel with two doors, and further, Ford built Panel Deliveries on the same chassis as cars and pickups but in Ford’s marketing strategy the 112” Panel and 1/2T pickup were known as Commercial Cars, autos were Passenger Cars.
The larger 3/4T and 1T were sold as trucks and for 1938 those were 122” and 134” chassis, with heavier suspension components and truck type wheels and tires.
My reason for posting the photos was to illustrate the shorter depth of the firewall on a ‘38 Commercial Car (Ford’s caps, not mine) which could be a 1/2T pickup or a Panel Delivery. Commercial Cars and autos used the same components except for the firewall and a shorter cowl and both of those photos are 1938 Fords, the second photo showing a coupe or sedan.
As far as my suggestion of the cab being shifted forward anyone that has driven an early Ford pickup is well aware that is does not have the legroom, nor the comfort of a like year coupe or sedan.

 

That doesn’t look like a Ford front fender.

But what do I know, anyway?

 

Front suspension pictures as asked for....

The panel truck is the 1/2 ton version and uses the 35-40 chassis the same as the pickup chassis and sedan chassis , hub to hub is 112” , I made sure it wasn’t a 3/4 or 1ton version. The panel truck has 2 rear doors rather then the single door like the sedan delivery.

 

Rear suspension and how the body sits on the frame pictures , so I can’t shift the body forward or back at all.

When I got the truck it had the original sheet metal on the front and it did line up , the steering box had been changed , it has Chevy bolt pattern hubs and a Chevy 10 bolt rear , so the suspension components have been changed around.

 

I have seen this type of build done on a few pickups now and that’s what interested me to do it, but I can’t actually find anyone who had built one to ask. With the other builds being pickups I was wondering if they moved their cabs back slightly to accommodate for this issue.
When I purchased this build from a fellow HAMB member I made sure to ask that it was the original chassis as I didn’t want something that wasn’t original frame and wanted to stay period correct.

 

@38nailhead ......thank you for posting such a good set of photos and verifying the original sheet metal was attached and aligned with the wheels. I am now satisfied the body and chassis are correctly matched. That rear suspension conversion to parallel leaf appears to be a Chassis Engineering Kit. The spring mounting brackets appear to be the same as the CE kit I used on a Ford Coupe about ten years ago. CE made great stuff like that.

As for the pickup conversion to passenger sheet metal, I have seen a few up close and ‘in person’ and they definitely do not have the length alignment issue your truck has. The most common mod required is to solve the mismatch of the beading differences between the door and hood.

@Fordors ......I think I will have to concede this version of Delivery body does indeed have different proportions/dimensions in the cowl area than the standard pickup and passenger models. Can I at least have a scoop of ice cream on my slice of Humble Pie?

Ray

 

biggest problem I see with moving the axle/crossmember ahead is dealing with the wishbone.you would lose the rear mounting location and have even more wishbone to oilpan issues than normal.I hate to say it,but this would be an ideal Mustang II swap candidate or even[gasp]dare I say it? Nova clip

 

I would rather go back to the original sheet metal then use a mustang front suspension, no appeal to me at all.

The wishbone is already split and is set up for a th350 box, but eventually I’m going to be fitting a 302 and c6 box. What issues would be caused if the wishbones were extended ?

Also I have the original steering column, which will be connected to a new vega box , is their anyway I can extend this if it does come to moving the front axle ?

Thanks , Benedict

 

I see you have 3 choices, each with pro's and con's.

1_ cut a couple inches behind front cross member and lengthen the frame, (my choice). 2_ use the original sheet metal. 3_ use a different front suspension and move just the suspension forward (late model crown vic?)

Again if I were you and set on that sheet metal, lengthen the frame and call it a day.

 

I suggest you consider a C4 vs the C6. The C6, though rugged, has a lot more horsepower robbing internal friction and bulkier/heavier than a C4. The C4 is a very good trans.

I agree with proposition #1.........relatively easy solution, move the steering box forward and extend the column.

Nix on #3....the Crown Vic suspension is waaaay too wide and does not lend itself to narrowing. Also requires deep backspaced wheels to maintain steering geometry.

Ray

 

I didnt think of that idea to extend the frame but I like it , as I am very determined to use the sheet metal. Thanks

 

This is the truck with the original front sheet metal and then the 38 deluxe front , I have wanted to do this build for a long time now

 

Is it off the same amount on both sides? The passenger fender looks to have had a section cut out and then a piece put back into it? Isn't that weld on the fender? If both fenders are true and correct side to side and it is off the same amount both sides then I'd extend the front frame section with the crossmember.

 

The fender on the left was repaired and it is the correct size as the other one, the hood sides use the curve of the fender and they both fit perfectly.

 

So can I ask , extending the wishbones won’t cause any issues ?

 

Are you able to post a side view of the front tire/'38 sheet metal (I too prefer it over the stock front end)...with the wheels straight ahead.

 

Why extend the 'bones; just fabricate some new mounts. You may have to spread them a little more and re-square the spring hangers to the axle. Neither changes rocket science. The steering should be moved up some if not the whole amount the frame stretch.
If that is a Vega box, It's too light, I'd get rid of it and get a 525 box instead.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using The H.A.M.B. mobile app

 

I will be able to get pictures in a few days as my truck is an hours drive away from me. But when we measured , to get the wheel to fit central to the fender it’s 5.5” away from it.