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History NHRA Junior Stock

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by colesy, Aug 12, 2007.

  1. rooman
    Joined: Sep 20, 2006
    Posts: 4,045

    rooman
    Member

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  2. Just going to ask. San Gabriel mountains in the back, right?
     
  3. tommyd
    Joined: Dec 10, 2010
    Posts: 11,948

    tommyd
    Member
    from South Indy

    Nope , He's had a little bit of everything. The T-Bolt was the first Ford I ever saw him in. Then the ex ''Coal Digger'' car and Billy Glidden in the Probe. All else have been G.M. products. Wen he was involved with racing no one was more generous than him in helping so many sportsman racers.
     
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  4. Speedwrench
    Joined: Nov 21, 2009
    Posts: 1,032

    Speedwrench
    Member

    Is this the same Stout who ran a mobile home / RV sales operation there in Indy ?
     
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  5. Junior Stock
    Joined: Aug 24, 2004
    Posts: 1,891

    Junior Stock

    Yes it is Speedwrench.
    Tommy, I guess the first car I remember was the ex ”Coal Digger” ran SS/I as I remember.

    I could not remember who originally owned that car so I googled it. Don Bowles had it and ran SS/K.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
  6. tommyd
    Joined: Dec 10, 2010
    Posts: 11,948

    tommyd
    Member
    from South Indy

    1455955_1543373962604553_3930899093891589466_n.jpg Ex Gas Ronda - Bob Glidden car. 58383568_2297609803847628_2048021856216154112_n.jpg
     
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  7. Unique Rustorations
    Joined: Nov 15, 2018
    Posts: 623

    Unique Rustorations
    Member

    Again I’m back asking questions and not trying to mess up the thread but I hope my questions are legit. Thanks to Chuck Norton I have downloaded and printed all of the rule books from ‘58-‘68 and put them in a binder. I’m reading the 1961 rule book now and on pages 14-15 for the stock car classes it lists the Designations based upon shipping weight versus advertised HP.

    Question #1: was there a guide for shipping weight published by NHRA? I mean did NHRA actually weigh them or just use the Pontiac’s advertising numbers? For example if I was running a ‘61 Catalina 2-door hardtop w a V8 I only find 3650 lbs as the shipping weight from Pontiac’s own advertising but they don’t differentiate between types of transmissions or even between sedans and convertibles.

    Q2: if I was entering this ‘61 Catalina in competition under “Engine” requirements also on page 14 it states “ in each car must be of the specific type, year and make as the car in which it is being run”. So the NHRA would check the engine codes and head castings (to ensure I hadn’t pulled the 389 and installed a 421)? It also states under the carburetor section “must be the correct year make and model” so I also assume they checked the carb casting numbers? (In some cases these were just tags...)

    As I read all the requirements it appears I will have to start by purchasing a vehicle with its original (or correct) engine, transmission and diff to be even close to the rules. I believe I understand that as long as the engine installed is in fact a ‘61 model year block and heads it would be correct (even if the vehicle was sold new with a different engine).

    I’m going to have more questions as I pursue locating the correct car to buy but wanted to get these few questions out of the way.

    Thank you all for being patient and helping me with understanding the rules. Regards, Randy




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  8. Junior Stock
    Joined: Aug 24, 2004
    Posts: 1,891

    Junior Stock

  9. Unique Rustorations
    Joined: Nov 15, 2018
    Posts: 623

    Unique Rustorations
    Member

    Yes that helps a ton!! I did look around on the NHRA website but was using my phone and couldn’t find that. Thank you Junior Stock! Regards, Randy


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  10. rooman
    Joined: Sep 20, 2006
    Posts: 4,045

    rooman
    Member

    Yep. And the still existing railroad tracks in the immediate background. The cars are in the staging lanes before they make the left turn onto the strip itself

    Roo
     
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  11. loudbang
    Joined: Jul 23, 2013
    Posts: 40,276

    loudbang
    Member


    Yes they check all those things BUT back then you had to use original parts not necessarily of the exact same car or year but the same type. But now there are all types of substitutions allowed with more modern parts because old stuff is so hard to locate or no longer made.

    So if you are just building for your pleasure to old rules you don't need to use EXACTLY the parts that originally came with your particular car just made for the same type and year of car. Like you can use any engine of the same size and year of your car it doesn't have to be the exact one that came with your car.
     
  12. Terry Bell
    Joined: Apr 21, 2016
    Posts: 189

    Terry Bell

    A lot of guys running Nostalgia Super Stock and Nostalgia stock use 455 Pontiac engines in their cars instead of 389's. Same for the Chevy guys using 350's or 400 engines instead of 283's and the same up grades for other brands. . Its all a bracket race as long as they have the "Look" of a Jr. stocker or S/S from the old days. Its less expensive in the long run. Same for the transmissions and rear ends. I'm assuming you are just wanting to play with the guys and gals in some of the NMCA type races ????
     
  13. Unique Rustorations
    Joined: Nov 15, 2018
    Posts: 623

    Unique Rustorations
    Member

    LB,

    Thanks for the response and clarification. Yes I’m just building one for fun (since I wanted to start racing again anyways so I figured I might as well do it like they did 60 years ago). And obviously I am the judge of my own car but I did want to understand the rules to the extent of how they were written back then. Besides some modern safety equipment I do plan on using period correct speed equipment where the rules allowed (cams, shifter. Traction devices, etc). I guess the bottom line is I had planned on building an old Pontiac to go bracket racing anyways so I figured I might as well build it to “race against the past” so to speak and it would also be H.A.M.B. friendly for our events. Thanks again for lighting this fire with all of the pictures you post of that era. Regards, Randy


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  14. Unique Rustorations
    Joined: Nov 15, 2018
    Posts: 623

    Unique Rustorations
    Member

    [QUOTE="Terry Bell, post: 13170760, member: 281858" I'm assuming you are just wanting to play with the guys and gals in some of the NMCA type races ????[/QUOTE]

    Terry,

    Honestly I was building one because that era of racing has stuck with me since I was 16 and reading old magazines about them. I have not looked into any of the events that they run today with them but I will now as it sounds that there are others doing the same thing I am wanting to do. Thanks for the information I will go look into the NMCA. Regards, Randy


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  15. Junior Stock
    Joined: Aug 24, 2004
    Posts: 1,891

    Junior Stock

    There are at least 2 of the older Pontiacs running in Stock Eliminator now. They are in the lower classes so I would think they are 389's.
     
  16. Terry Bell
    Joined: Apr 21, 2016
    Posts: 189

    Terry Bell

    Terry,

    Honestly I was building one because that era of racing has stuck with me since I was 16 and reading old magazines about them. I have not looked into any of the events that they run today with them but I will now as it sounds that there are others doing the same thing I am wanting to do. Thanks for the information I will go look into the NMCA. Regards, Randy


    Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.[/QUOTE]
    Randy,
    I used to work for the NMCA years ago when it was run out of Racing Head Service with the 2 brothers Smeltnicks(sp ?) and Ivars was the tech director. I worked for them until the NMCA was sold as a tech guy because stockers and S/S cars were my thing and Ivars had a heart attack and died. . I started going to a strip back in 1963 named Aqusco in Southern Md. I raced in Jr. stock until I was drafted in 1966. After the Nam "Vacation" I used to go to strips in Kentucky near Ft. Knox. When I got out of the Army I started racing again with a 1968 Z-28 then a 1969 Corvette in F/S. . Around 1971 I worked for NHRA for about 3 years in Div. 1. I quit them and worked for IHRA for almost 23 years as their head S/S and stock tech guy. I used to write their rule book for sportsman class cars for the about the last 10 or 12 years. I helped start the Nostalgia S/S deal and later the Nostalgia stocker deal. I stopped all tech work about 15 plus years ago as I got old. I'm 73 now but still play with a 79 Corvette in brackets set up as a legal late 70's stocker but I don't race NHRA. Its to much work and $$$$$ now that I'm retired. I was friends before the Army days with a bunch that raced early Super Duty Pontiacs who called themselves "The Indian Tribe". A couple held NHRA records back in the early to middle 1960's. I knew Max Sterling with his 1961 White Lightning SD and stayed in touch with him until he passed away. Joe Perzan raced a 1960 SD station wagon back in the 7 inch tire days.
    Anyway the Nostalgia S/S class is run off of 1/4 second ET breaks and the same for the National muscle cars (Jr. stockers) but a little slower for those guys. You can find the ET breaks on the NMCA site and their rules. The stockers can use a 10.5 tire and the S/S class use 11.5 tires unless something has changed as of late. . No tear downs just the appearance is all that matters. Hope this helps and you will enjoy it. !
    Terry Bell (aka: X-tech man on the Class racer site)
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2019
  17. Unique Rustorations
    Joined: Nov 15, 2018
    Posts: 623

    Unique Rustorations
    Member

    Wow! I had to read that a few times. Clearly you have a lifetime of experience so thank you for sharing! I’d love to hear more about your experiences that’s for sure! I’ve already looked up the schedule for the NMCA and two events are close to me this fall. I like Norwalk (I’ll be there for the Tripower Nats in a few weeks helping to crew my friends 10-second Pontiac) and their event is a few weeks after so that should work out well. Thanks again for your time. Looking forward to hearing more. Regards, Randy


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  18. Terry Bell
    Joined: Apr 21, 2016
    Posts: 189

    Terry Bell

    Randy,
    I have been around except the last several years. Yes I miss the job but nothing ever stays the same. I still keep track of what is going on in NHRA. Stock elim. is NOT stock anymore with all the engine mods allowed. I feel it changed because of all the good Tech guys retiring or passing away. The NHRA seldom does any tear downs the last few years. Time marches on. One gets tired of the BS and the long hours on their feet and late nights inspecting engines in tear down. IHRA was a good racing association until Bill Bader sold it. It went down hill in a hurry after that. If you see Bill at the Norwalk races tell him I said hello and wished he still owned and ran the IHRA. Myself and Mike Keener of "Checkmate" fame started the heads up Top Stock program back in 2001 if you remember anything about that. I have a lot of stories I could tell but its probably best not to post them on this or any other site....LOL. I was also in charge of checking the Pro Stock engines and I had the tools as I used to work for the Dept. of the Navy inspecting machined parts for stuff that went BOOM and ejection aircraft seats. Prior to that I calibrated the precision tools used such as bore gages, dial indicators, dial and electronic calipers, etc. so my stuff was always on the money. I got to know Bill Jenkins, Roy Hill, Bob Glidden, and a ton of others who respected me for my work. I got a call one day at home from Bill GRUMPY Jenkins and he invited me to come up and spend a day at his shop during the small block years. THAT was a day I will never forget. Sonny Lenard the mountain engine builder also said I had it together and "Dead Nuts" a few years before I quit as we used to have all the qualifier's in Pro Stock pull a head. We never used the P&G pump very often. I'm not bragging at all just stating a fact that happened. Love to see some pictures of your car when its done and maybe I can catch up sometime at one of the NMCA races or Norwalk but I moved about 10 years ago from Maryland near Budds Creek drag strip and now live in Florida. But as I said....Time marches on and waits for no one so do it now while you are young !
    Terry (aka: X TECH MAN)
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2019
  19. loudbang
    Joined: Jul 23, 2013
    Posts: 40,276

    loudbang
    Member

  20. impala4speed
    Joined: Jan 31, 2010
    Posts: 488

    impala4speed
    Member

    Great story Terry. I love to read the history of the sport from those such as yourself who were there. Thanks for posting.
     
  21. Terry Bell
    Joined: Apr 21, 2016
    Posts: 189

    Terry Bell

    You are very welcome.....Thanks for the kind words !
     
  22. loudbang
    Joined: Jul 23, 2013
    Posts: 40,276

    loudbang
    Member


    Hell yea post as many stories from back in the day you want to we love them.
     
  23. Unique Rustorations
    Joined: Nov 15, 2018
    Posts: 623

    Unique Rustorations
    Member

    Terry,

    I remember reading about disqualifications after the race I’m assuming that was during a teardown inspection. What were some of the infractions that you found? Randy


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  24. loudbang
    Joined: Jul 23, 2013
    Posts: 40,276

    loudbang
    Member

    1965 NHRA World Championship and Tulsa Invitational Drag Races . Bill Jenkins prepared Monster Mash II 1955 Chevrolet leads Doug Kahl's 1961 Plymouth down the strip, but Doug Kahl's Plymouth will eventually overtake the Chevy.
    EDIT: from Chuck Norton Doug's car is a 1962

    965 NHRA World Championship and Tulsa Invi.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
  25. Chuck Norton
    Joined: Apr 23, 2009
    Posts: 774

    Chuck Norton
    Member
    from Division 7

    The caption writer needs another cup of coffee this morning. Kahl's Plymouth was a '62. It's a small distinction but the 361", 305 hp combination produced a lot of victories for Plymouth in that era. Part of the secret was the Torque-flight transmission that provided a big boost for Chrysler during the early-mid 60's.

    c
     
  26. loudbang
    Joined: Jul 23, 2013
    Posts: 40,276

    loudbang
    Member


    I'm finding out the hard way their captions leave something to be desired. :confused:
     
  27. Terry Bell
    Joined: Apr 21, 2016
    Posts: 189

    Terry Bell

    Lots of things such as pistons with to small of a dish as it seems that before I came to work the tech guys never C.C. d the piston dish. They just looked at it to see if it had a dish. or checked the depth with a caliper. One guy I checked was using pistons from another engine combo that had a dish much smaller than the ones he should have been using. It was a newer Chevy Chevelle but I don't remember what year it was but the pistons were from a V-6 but he ran a V-8 combo. He was a constant top 10 car and I bounced it. It embarrassed him so bad that he sold the car and bought a boat to go fishing. This was at Bristol Tenn. many many years ago . Cam shafts that were out of spec. in stock, wrong head casting numbers, Q- jet carbs that should have been the 730 CFM Chevy carb and not the larger ones off a 455 Buick or Pontiac, ported heads under the valves, stiffer valve springs, the usual. Most of these cars were NOT the NHRA regulars. The NHRA regulars were from a tighter run ship....LOL. This would all be legal in the Nostalgia races of today unless you just want to play with what have been a legal drive train from the past. Today its all about the "LOOK" not how fast you can run or how much $$$$ you can spend with pre determined indexes !.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2019
  28. Terry Bell
    Joined: Apr 21, 2016
    Posts: 189

    Terry Bell

    Chuck is on the money all the time. He lived it back in the day. I first met him at the first TOP STOCK meet at Norwalk Ohio in 2001. He is a great guy and wished I had known him when he ran his Corvette in I/S. Calif. is a long way from Maryland and I only went to Pomona once back in 1978. 49 hours one way towing a 1969 Camaro 255 HP rag top named "MR. CLEAN " stopping only for gas, a burger, and to take a leak. . The owner and driver was also named Terry Hillard from Shepard's Town West Va. and he red lighted the first round of class. That was when you had to win class to run in the eliminator. Oh well.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
  29. Chuck Norton
    Joined: Apr 23, 2009
    Posts: 774

    Chuck Norton
    Member
    from Division 7

    Yeah, I wish you'd been here, too, Terry. I could have used some oversight!

    Showed your highly complimentary comment to my wife and grown daughters. They're not convinced but every little bit helps.

    Highest regards,

    c
     
  30. Unique Rustorations
    Joined: Nov 15, 2018
    Posts: 623

    Unique Rustorations
    Member

    Terry,

    Ok so can I ask how the process normally went? Did the owner disassemble with you nearby to inspect and measure parts? Was the area kinda closed off so competitors couldn’t have a look? How long did the process take? Were winners always torn-down? I’ve read from Steve Cox that his mom and dad’s ‘61 Catalina was always being inspected and in one case the camshaft was actually taken and sent off to be analyzed further. I understand this was a high profile case since Carol was the first woman driver and winner.
    From my standpoint it would seem that performing these inspections would require a high level of specific vehicle information and details. Did you perform inspections on all vehicle makes or did you specialize so to speak? Hope you don’t mind all of the questions but actually talking with you and Chuck is a thrill for me! Regards, Randy


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