I once installed a short block 389 in a 64 bonnieville. The owner wanted to install a set of 67 400 heads and Q jet intake. So he took those heads to the machine shop where he purchased the short block. They told him if he installed those heads there was no guarantee on the short block.
My $.02 and just a guess. That debris looks like the steel shot that is used after the parts are "baked" for cleaning. Good ole' caustic hot tanks seem to be a thing of the past and everything (around here) is baked and then hit with steel shot. I found some in a pair of heads I had done. Best of luck and please let everyone know the outcome.
[QUOTE="INVISIBLEKID, And it's been run...... Hey- Not to piss in anyone's Wheaties, but- if that was caught in the oil filter, Just think where the rest went, and circulated through..........[/QUOTE] If this Pontiac engine has a FULL FLOW oil filter, and it should, the filter prevented it getting any where else. Oil flow flushed it into the oil pan where pump pickup screen SHOULD have stopped it. Almost as if the debris was between the pump and filter. Wish I knew oil flow for this engine. Ben
It does look like a load of crap left in the block and or crank. Talk to the builder first before taking anything apart, he may want to pop the pan off it himself. If you do it, your argument gets weaker.
His long block was built by the shop, I wonder if they might have cleaned the block and heads properly but left shot inside the valley cover if that was baked and cleaned with shot also.
When we tried to prelube a buddy’s 351 before first firing it up the new oil pump would not turn, long story short the pump had a bunch of debris in it. Now I pull every pump apart to inspect for debris and check clearances before installing. I have not found debris in one since, but I also steer clear of Melling pumps.
Young man across the street had gotten his rebuilt long block 350 Chevy back from local machine shop. He wanted me to help 'prep' it before installing, to run the cam/lifters in. Engine wouldn't turn... Removed the pan, then oil pump. Oil pump wouldn't turn...It was jammed up tighter than Dick's hat band. Same as above...Mr. Melling must have scooped up some shavings. Open your Mellings first, if you still use them...Last one I opened was rusty inside. NEW! Watermellings...
The one picture of your hand looks like shavings of some sort. What else did you have done to the engine?
I agree with "Footbrake" ! If you do any disassembly before returning to them, they most likely won't stand behind their product. If they disassemble and find no problem, expect to pay them for the work. Also casually mention that some guys on line recommended that as the best thing for you to do. No business likes to think they might get bad press on line.
Folks, I still can not comprehend how that stuff got through a pump pickup screen to then reach the filter. What am I missing? Ben
It can’t filter stuff already in the oil circuit. If the oil passages were dirty, this was flushed out when oil started pumping The screen prevented the pump from recirculating it and smaller pieces were caught by the filter.
Most of that stuff is too big to go through the screen. The screen did its job and that's a good thing. That crap was already in the oil galley. Sent from my VS835 using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
OK, Anthony and Rickybop, Thanks . So the fear of further damage is the assumption that downstream of the filter oil galleys are similarly compromised. So ONLY crap in the oil galley is going to be a potential problem. Ben
No assumptions here. And don't you make any either. There are no guarantees of where the debris is and isn't. That's why some of the guys said... and rightly so... that's the engine needs to be disassembled and thoroughly cleaned before reassembly. The only decision you have to make is whether you're going to do it, or as has been suggested, you take the engine back to the machinist assembler and have them redo it. By all rights, they should. In any regard, you need to make them aware of this issue. Sent from my VS835 using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
The oil flows from a screen in the sump, through the pump and filter. Then the oil galleys for lifters and crank. The debris is a combination of debris not cleaned from the block and normal metal produced from friction of new parts. I doubt any of it recirculated after it was flushed out. I will add that an engine can be cranked and tested on a stand but it’s not technically “broke in” until its under a load from a dyno or driven In my worthless opinion. You have 2 options 1. Clean up what you can and run it. 2. Check and clean all oil galleys, check main, rod and cam bearings. Hopefully the shop will do this for you on the block. Ask the shop to look at what you found They will be correct in saying some metal is normal. Those bigger pieces do not look normal to me
This discussion about where that crap came from and wither or not the filter stopped it "All" is mute as far as I am concerned. It's in the engine you know that for sure, and it sure as hell doesn't belong there. There is no way I would trust that the filter or the screen caught it or not. I feel like you must at least take a look at the bearings both the mains and the rods at a minimum. If you have the skills and the knowledge to do this yourself, that is what I would do. I would not give this machine shop another shot at my, engine warranty by damned. Sometimes there not worth the paper they are printed on.
If I were in this situation, I would drop a main and a rod cap and see if anything hit the crank. If it was in the galley between the pickup and the filter the odds are good it's in other galleys as well. If the crank was unscathed I would consider disassembling and cleaning it myself. If it hit the crank, I would go no further and kick it back on the machine shop.
And why would anyone in their right mind take anything back to someone who did shoddy work the first time?
Maybe the black stuff does, but there clearly is metal shavings in that pic of his hand, one at least is curled up, that is a cutting, just like something off a lathe or a drill press. Looks nice and shiny too, like it's new. That's not good. I see a lot of metal in the other pics as well. A little brake cleaner will clean them off so they are more visible. A magnet will tell you if they are ferrous or not.
Agreed, wear metals from break in should be super fine. The stuff that collects on my magnetic drain plug is so fine that it doesn't have a gritty feel when you roll it between your thumb and forefinger.
You make a good point, oldwolf. I thought of that too. That's why I said it's the OP's decision. I think it depends. Stuff happens. For me, it would depend on the attitude of the owner when I brought this to his attention. If he seemed lackadaisy or disinterested or worse yet, defensive... I wouldn't let him touch it. But if he clearly took the matter seriously and was eager enough to be accountable and responsible, I might give him a chance to make good. I think I'd probably want the opportunity to check his work before assembly, though. Sent from my VS835 using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
There is no question in my mind that they screwed up on the build, but they deserve a chance to make it right, if they choose not to then the next step is up to the OP to decide how he wants to handle it!
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Unless you're willing to take full ownership of this situation in it's entirety, do your own labor to tear down, clean and reassemble this engine properly, have the skills and tools required to do the work properly and have the funds to buy the parts and materials needed to put this right... "Don't tear anything more apart on it! Take your oil sample and filter to them and let them tell you what to do next. Assuming they're a "stand-up" machine shop. The less you touch the less reason they have to suspect your motives." Don't go in with a chip on your shoulder. Don't go in jacked-up on Starbucks and Red Bulls. See what their attitude is before you show them yours. You'll draw more flies with honey than you will with vinegar.
"Walk quiet and carry a big stick." The shavings are your 'big stick'. Present them with confidence, they didn't 'grow there'.
Perfect, 31 LOL. I was feeling that too but I didn't know how to say it. Sent from my VS835 using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
Any automotive machine shop knows how to properly clean and assemble an engine, but the question is about how much pride they take in what they do. I'd take the filter to them and see what they are willing to do. If they are reluctant to disassemble the engine........no,make that " if they are anything other than honestly trying to help you and protect their reputation", THEN take it to one of their competitors. Ask if you can be there whenever it is disassembled. Use your phone and take pics of any problems so you have documentation. If you have to pay someone else to redo the engine, save your pictures and the new bill from the other shop. Then take them to small claims court. You don't need a lawyer, just take your pictures and documentation and tell the judge what happened.
They would not get a second chance with me. Warranty or not, but they would hear from me. They had their chance to make it right the first time.
I have built a lot of Pontiac 455's, the one place most shops miss in the cleaning cycle is the valley cover pan. It is a two piece steel pan that is very hard to clean. If it's hot tanked or backed, the dry bits tend to stay and can get dumped out when putting it on the engine. The oiling system is just like most engines, pump to filter, filter to drivers side lifter galley with drops to the crank mains. From the crank mains it goes through the crank to the rods or up through the block to cam bearings. At the front of the block, the drivers side oil galley crosses through the front cam bearing to the passenger side lifter galley. For crude to pass through the oiling system, it has to get through a bearing or lifter. I can't picture any part of the engine that would have a shaving like whats in your hand. I have seen that type of chip from cutting guides out of the heads, so does it have new valve guides? Did the crank get balanced? If that piece is from engine run-in damage, the engine wouldn't still be running. I would guess they didn't properly clean the parts before installing.
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