I should know this however I do know to install different ear sets on the tri five and 12olt chevy rears you must have the correct carrier. 3 series carriers for gear ratios in the threes and 4 series for gears in the four ranges. My question on a ford nine inch can you install a 411 ring & pinion in a 325 housing and carrier?
Yes, Ford did not have the different carriers for different ratio ranges. There is only one for a nine inch that fits all gear sets.
Do be aware that there is also a 9 3/8" carrier, always found with 31 spline axles, that only accepts 9 3/8" gears. Note; that does not mean that all 31 spline rears are 9 3/8", just that all of the 9 3/8" rears have 31 spline axles. I believe that there are only four different ratios for them, 2.80, 3.00, 3.25, and 3.50. They can be found in Lincolns, and early 428 cars, as well as others. The whole center section can be bolted in a 9 inch housing, with a little grinding to clear the ring gear, but the axles for the 9 3/8" are supposedly a little bit shorter. I am bringing this up, because I personally have only found that 3.25 gear in the 9 3/8", but that is just my experience.
Believe it or not a 4 bolt side cover Muncie 318. Behind a 400 Pontiac engine. I also might use a Warner(ford) three speed. And I might go to 456 gears. I want to gear for 1/8 mile. at 6000 RPM
I like the 12 bold, but I am changing from the 12 bolt 3.73 to a 9 inch, but only because I have the 9 inch and want to do some suspension upgrades. I'll be running the same ratio with the 9 inch rear end. There is no question that you can get almost any ratio your heart desires, all it takes is money. Bob
Lets qualify that a bit. There is only one carrier for 9" Fords, but if you install deep gears on a high gear carrier, you might have to relieve the pinion pilot bearing support for ring gear clearance. I have had to do a couple of them. As I recall it starts at 4.56 and up, but it might start at 4.09.
Be careful with the stock chunk . Big torque and sticky tires will lead to front pinion bearing failure and then the pinion exits the carrier through the top tearing up a bunch of stuff. In fact the Southeast Gassers have banned stock carriers on their cars for just that reason. Strange makes several stronger than stock carriers. Also you will need a Daytona type pinion support. Ford 9 inch rears are not as strong stock as people say. My avatar blew the pinion out the top of a stock carrier using an automatic with a trans brake. The housings also flex enough to put ring gear gouge marks on the inside of the housing before I put a back brace on the housing. I have a real nice set of used 4.56 gears I will sell cheap if you decide to go the ratio. A Dana 60 is stronger stock than a 9 inch. You probably ought to go to 1350 u-joints if you are going to real sticky tires and a hard launch.
I think my trans will be the weakest link. Its going into a 3000 pound car. I have no desire to pull wheelies. Not gonna do RPM side step the clutch starts. Been there done that with high RPM small blocks. Used a 400 block with a 350 crank and just broke stuff. Thinking back I won the most races with a 66 galaxie with a 428 and 300 rear gears. the crusomatic wouldn't hold up . so I put in a C6. and I never even came up against the converter taking off. just stomped the gas pedal from a idle. It was a 14 second quarter mile car. I see I can buy gears online for less than $150 including shipping. The 400 is a stock 69 engine. will add hedders and different carb. I might buy a 70 bonnieville with a 455 today?
All of this is going in the 55 in my avatar. Im planning on only running front fenders and radiator support no hood or inner fenders. battery relocated to the trunk. Ive already got a 9 inch from a 69 ford fairlane under it. with the springs relocated in line with the frame. at present it has 390 gears. a bit tall for a 1/8 mile. I aint worried about breaking a 318. three speed. ive got a big pile of them. I can change one in 30 minutes.
the 9 inch ford is one of the most supported rears with aftermarket parts quick performance is one that has just about anything you would ever need for good prices
I used 9 inch rears under my 56 fords 50 years ago. I never broke one. They where all take outs from trucks, 390 and 411 chunks. I did weld the spyder gears up to lock them a couple of times.
should be fine with the stock parts. I've run 2.47 to 4.11 gears in the same case with the same diff, no issues.
N case can be found in extended cab pickups as well HP cars . I bought 2 out from under F150 trucks , at scrap yard for 25.00 each . But that was many years ago , 9 in is just about dried up in terms of scrap anymore . Have you given any thinking to 8.8 Ford . They are pretty tough and plentiful for a while . Say what you will , I had one stock in A 70 Cobra , 429 SCJ . That car was as big as a barge , when raking gears hard , the ash tray would fly out of the dash . I never broke one piece of that driveline . It was the effect of the car being rear ended by a log truck , when bangin gears
Sounds like you already know those little 3 speeds aren't going to hold up. Why not sell them to restorers and buy a Tremec TKO five speed. Already has a shifter and either 500 or 600 ft lbs rating. Lower first gear ratio and overdrive. Bout $2k and they bolt right up to your bell housing. Might not have to change the rear ratio and still street driveable. Can always up the rear ratio later if need be.
In my hoard ive got 4 speeds. one is a ford top loader from behind a FE. There isn't any ready market for the 318's ive even got a couple 319's haven't sold one in years. sold every Saginaw three speed I had. except one its a overdrive trans. And I don't need a five speed or even a 4 speed for a 1/8 mile. Ive got some ford top loader three speeds from pickups that came from behind FE's they are strong. However everything has its weakest link . I just as soon have it be a low dollar trans. The 318's have a pretty decent first gear. and when those gears are meshed its as strong as anything else. its the sliding barrel syncro that breaks. they get to jumping out of second and third gear. and then that 2K price. To date ive got less than $1000 in my 55 chevy wagon. And I usually have extra cash. because I hate spending money. One time it was freezing cold and our deep well pump had went out from a power surge by a lightining strike. My son and I where out in the cold pulling the pump. And it was miserable. And he says why not have the local water well guy come and fix this. I replied he would charge $500 do you have $500? My son says no but you do. I replied exactly and not spending money on things I can do myself is why I have that $500. If I was worried about trans & driveline breakage I would put a powerglide in it. I already have a few of them. But all real hot rods have three pedals.
Understand the parts hoarding and making do with what you have....been there and still there. I also have learned to look at some situations and decide when i require too much sacrifice in order to save a buck. If you use the light duty three speed with some of today's sticky tires, most likely you will destroy them in quick order. Then you will most likely have a large spread between ratios which will hurt you in the 1\8 mile. Admittedly I don't know the ratios in a 316. Following that up you will need to purchase rear end gears and some type of posi. If you go to the Ford 4 speed you will most likely have more torque capacity, a lower first gear(?) and a closer spread between gears.....but you will need to buy an expensive adapter.....if anyone makes one for that combo. If you purchase a Muncie or a Borg Warner, you will most likely spend $1K, but it will bolt in. They are still limited in torque capacity, and if you break one, repairs are expensive and money lost. Also, in all the combinations above you will need to purchase a shifter, so more $$$. Last option, SELL some of those trans (4 speeds) and shifters and offset the cost of the TKO . The ease of installation and use of stock bell housing and clutch linkage will solve a lot of headaches and unforseen $$$ expenditures. You will most likely never hurt the TKO. You will have a lower first gear and may not need to change your rear end(?). You will have a closer ratio spread. If you ever decide to drive it on the street or to a rod run....you can because of the overdrive. Now, the most important thing is that anytime you want to sell it, you can get at least 3/4 of your money back years later. You may actually get all your money back as prices increase. My son has a Miller 212 that cost $1700 about 5 yrs ago. Now they sell for $2200. He can sell his for it's original cost any time he wants. While I know you have a lot of experience and a lot of parts on hand that you can cobble up, my opinion is that this is one of those cases where spending money will actually save you money in the long run. That being said, YOUR opinion is really the only opinion that counts.....so best of luck on the race car!
My scattershield is drilled for both the ford and chevy trans. and the factory aluminum bellhousing currently on my Pontiac engine will accept a GM or ford trans. Yep that correct some GM vehicles in the 60,s used ford transmissions. As far as a posi. I simply weld the spyder gears. making a spool. I don't plan on driving on the street, however what I have done in the past with welded spyder gears. is I turn down the end or the drivers side axle so its .002 smaller than the splines in the spyder gear. I then have a one wheeler that can be street driven. When I need to I simply install a axle that has splines. Been there done that before. I can get rear end gears on Ebay for less than $200. You know the 318 was used untl 64 in cars. Yes it was used behind 348 tri powers. high horse vette small blocks ect. They aren't inherently weak they simply are not a strong a other transmissions. then my end goal isn't to have a bullet proof vehicle or even win races. Its just to have a bit of fun playing with what I alreadyhave available. If making money was my goal ive missed the boat. I have less that $1000 in my 55. a few years ago a guy from Florida placed 65 one hundred dollar bills on the hood of the 55 trying to buy it. I told him I bought the car cheep enough I could afford to keep it.If I desired a $2000 trans I wouldn't need to sell anything I could buy it and pay cash. Im just wondering what gear ratio I need to get.
Sounds like you pretty well have things worked out to suit your needs. What I meant about the $2K trans wasn't that you were in it for the money, but that when considering the long term there are sometimes benefits that offset the expenditure and make it worthwile. In your case, you already have many assets that most people would have to spend money to acquire, and it appears that you can make it work for you. As for the gear ratio, its going to vary depending on the tranny you use because of the different ratios and the spread between those gears. Best to try what you already have and see how close your engine is to redline thru the lights.The bad thing about most three speeds is ratio spread. Four speeds usually have a lower first gear and a closer spread with less rpm drop...........but you already knew that, didn't ya. Anyway, best of luck with your project.
I thought I would post a picture of a 60,s factory Pontiac aluminum bellhousing with the GM and ford patterns. I was at a farm auction. and there was a homemade power unit on . Bought It for$85. It was a 69 400 with a standard bellhousing flywheel and clutch. Ran perfect. I sold the LP conversion stuff for $85. A HAMB member bought a V12 Lincoln engine from me. He came and picked it up. and I told him the story of the power unit. And He offered $85 for the LP parts. When I get this all cobbled together I still will not have much over a $1000 in it. Ok the 318 transmissions that came from pickups have a 294 to 1 first a168 to 1 second and a 1to 1 high. six grand is about where you need to shift a Pontiac mill. Ive always thought had it really been in the spring of 62. the American Grafitti 55 would of had a 421 Pontiac engine. and I am at the place where I can install a tin indiam mill in my old wagon. I might put a Torker intake on it. It will get hedders. But I am leaving the engine internals alone. Sometimes a well tuned stock engine is better that a tempermental souped up one.
Neat stuff ! I'd definitely use a dial indicator to verify the concentricity of the trans mounting hole when the bellhousing is mounted to the block. Half of the stock ones I've seen were out of alignment, and then there is the fact that there are at least two different bore sizes for Chevy housings. I assume that GMs BOP housings were less than perfect too. Lotta people don't realize that when they have the wrong size hole (large) in the housing, the tranny goes in easy but isn't centered. Don't have any idea if the Ford trans and the Chevy trans are correct diameter for the BOP, but my guess is that the BOP was the smaller diameter because they used the same 4 speeds as the Chevy. I think the difference was that truck bellhousings had the larger hole.....ahhh, but then memory isn't always right these days. See you got mud daubbers too.....damn little pests. I made an air tool rack that has a little flange to keep them out of the air fittings but they always find some other hole to fill up.
I raced a big block Chevy that was a torque motor and I shifted at 5900 rpm's and found out that a 4.11 worked better than a lower gear even when running 1/8th mile. Early 60's GTO's ran Ford 3 speeds because GM did not have a fully synchronized 3 speed. I worked at a Pontiac dealership when I was in high school doing new car prep etc. I remember the mechanics talking about a damn Ford transmission in a GM car. There was a magazine comparison between a 3 speed GTO and a 4speed GTO. 2 identical cars except for the transmissions back in the 60's and it was very close between the two cars.
Yep my wife says if you held still the mud wasp would stop up your nose. Actually I am not even going to use that aluminum bellhousing. I have a scattershield. that has a dual pattern .it will bolt on to a chevy or a BOP engine. and it accepts a starter on the passenger side. has the provision to bolt to a 55 thru 57 stock bellhousing mounting. and has the dual trasnsmission pattern to boot.I used this bellhousing 50+ years ago when I installed a 62 - 421 super duty engine in a 58 chevy impala. and way back then I used a 318 three speed trans. and it had a stock 411 posi rear end. Wish I still had the 421.Yes its the truck bells for the Saginaw three speed that have the larger diameter hole.
Many of the GTO,s where equipped with 430 gears from the factory. there are two versions of the Ford trans. the RUG version has smaller parts and is weaker than the RAN version that came behind the FE,s and they came with both wide and close ratios.
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