1961 Pontiac HP ratings, talk about confusion. Here are several different HP ratings to choose from... The Standard SD-389 was rated at 368 HP.
Love the pics!! Yes the standard SD was rated at 368 but his car was originally ordered as a 348 tripower non-SD car. I’m assuming he added the parts but I don’t know that. Randy Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
Before 1962, "factory approved" or "optional" parts (with legal factory part numbers) could be added to the original equipment engines. Sometimes these parts were in short supply (as in only 10 sets were produced) in which case, the S/S cars were not approved to race in the S/S class at the NHRA U.S. Nationals in '61, but were put into the Optional Super Stock class (OS/S or OS/SA). By 1962, all the cars had to have engines that were "factory installed", although I recall issues with "non factory installed" parts at the Nationals again, and some cars getting pushed into the Factory Experimental class...
Yes I understand that for ‘61 and assume that is what happened to their ‘61. Do you know the whereabouts of their ‘61 by chance? Randy Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
I don't know, however, you can contact Carol and Lloyd's son, Steve, on Facebook. https://www.facebook.com/steve.cox.3572
Question for you guys in the know. Was it required that the HP rating be clearly displayed in the stock class's? Points, national events only? Or strictly up to the owner? Love this thread & the input btw....thanks!
Nope, there was no requirement to post the displacement or the advertised HP. As long as we are discussing the Pontiacs in Stock Car drag racing, the question of "how stock were the stockers" comes up. I'm sure that everyone knows the A/FX Pontiac Tempest that Hayden Proffitt and Loyd Cox (Carol's hubby) put together for the '62 NHRA Winternationals not only won the class (with Hayden driving), but also won the class at the NHRA Nationals later that year with Lloyd driving. How stock was the Pontiac engine in that little Tempest? The 421 engine was 434 cubic inches at the Winternats (0.60 overbore was NHRA legal) and a whopping 487 cubes at the NHRA Nationals. This too was "legal". The NHRA Rulebook for Factory Experimental in '62 stated: "Any engine or options listed by the automobile manufacturer for the engine model are accepted only if the engine or options are listed with and accepted by the NHRA." How many Pontac racers knew that a stroker crank was avaialable from Pontiac in 1962? I would say only three people knew that, Hayden Proffitt, Lloyd Cox, and someone in the NHRA Tech Dept...
The 1960/1961 SD combos were "over the counter" parts available only. That is why later in stocker racing NHRA history ( I think it was 1972) that the 60/61 SD's were disallowed. The combo was not available as a factory direct order. The 348 HP was the hottest engine available direct from the factory. Except for the tri-power the SD parts included the NASCAR block, crankshaft and rods, heads, FORGED pistons, and several different solid lifter cams. The 1962 was the first year you could order the SD (421) combo factory direct so it is still allowed in NHRA stock today with or without Alum. fenders.
I'm not 100% sure but I believe Loyd was killed on a motorcycle. Carol never remarried an passed away in a seniors home of cancer at an advanced age. Two great people in the history of stocker, S/S, and FX drag racing. !
I used to go to the drag strip back in the mid 60's to watch the match races where the person who won 3 out of 5 races was the winner. What I never realized until years later was that the races were fixed by the promoter ahead of time kind of like wrestling. I met a guy from Texas who raced his car in many of the match races back in those day's and he told me the story of just how the show was run by the promoters and remember back in those day's there was only a handful of guy's running the shows. When match racing Sox & Martin he was told which races he would win in advance and when he said he did not want to do it that way the promoter reminded him that he promoted match races at drag strips from Maine to California and many of the states in between and if he wanted to be part of the shows he would have to agree to go along with the program. True Story! Jimbo
If I remember correctly, the block for the top street 348 hp 389 was the same as the SD. Also the pics of the 61s w the 373 hp lettering were actually 421s, not 389s.
When I hung around with the guys I mentioned above in the self named " Indian Tribe" some used the standard 389 block and those with $$$$$ had the NASCAR version block. There was a Heavy Duty block for NASCAR but very hard to get unless you knew someone with connections as most had been blown up or damaged in circle track racing. Even as early as 1964 the SD head (aka NASCAR head) was getting harder to find a good set. I remember John Walker blew an engine in Sam Sameuals 1960 Starfire at Aquasco on a time run right after he bought it and he was in a panic as the heads were hard to find even in 1965.. He was relieved when he found out that just the short block was damaged where it kicked out a rod.
Thank you George. Appreciate the posts by you and others in this thread. Your site is a great history lesson as well, thank you for that too!
I wonder if this had any effect on the NHRA declaring Sedan Deliverys trucks and allowing the hydro? posted by hemidav in the vintage thread
^^^^Had everything in the world with it^^^^. Sedan Deliveries were built, titled, and licensed as TRUCKS, even though they were built on a PASSENGER car chassis and used passenger car body panels for the most part. As above, they were only in the truck brochures and not the passenger car brochures. The Hydro was never factory installed in a Sedan Delivery, but since it was a "truck"..........................................NHRA allowed the Hydro to be installed, sort of through a loophole in the rules. And, I'm pretty sure the factory never installed/sold a dual quad V-8 engine either, let alone fuel injection. I was reading through my 2018 NHRA ruleboook last night, and we've sort of returned to yesteryear; 3 speed automatics are allowed in ALL the TRI-Five cars, as well as aftermarket blocks, rotating assemblies, etc. Stock? Nor hardly. I am Butch/56sedandelivery.
The hydro was though...available in the 55 V-8 pick up. Maybe that's why NHRA allow it in the delivery. May have been in the 56 pick ups too.
Actually, the Hydro was available in 53/54 through 64/66 Chev/GMC P.U. Trucks. The Hydro first came out for the 1939 Olds line. Lincoln even used them in the early 50's. I am Butch/56sedandelivery.
Those hi hp 58 Pontiacs were race motors. Cam difference at a minimum for sure (I think ISKY). Probably a compression bump too. Not sure what else. Could not get these motors complete from the factory.
I honestly feel that the NHRA Stock Class rules for 1962 were the zenith for the stock catagory. Basically, the rules stated that if it wasn't produced by the factory, and sold by dealers to the public, it would not be classified as "stock", (with very minor exceptions such as headers, etc.). From the 1962 NHRA Rulebook: "All cars in stock classes manufactured after June 1, 1961, must be factory assembly-line produced and generally show-room available." From my perspective, that said it all. And there was blame on both sides for the downfall of the "stock" classes from that point on. The factories for trying to get a leg up on the competition by introducing "special parts" over the counter, and NHRA for caving in to the factories and allowing it to happen. NHRA classes such as "Limited Production" and "Optional Super Stock" and even "Factory Experimental" should never have happened, in my opinion. If the vehicle was a factory produced, show room available "stock" car, it could be permitted to run as a stocker, and if not, it should have been shuffled off to one of the Gasser Classes, or in the case of the Altered Wheelbase cars, to the Altered Classes (which NHRA did do). Today, the Stock Cars probably have more aftermarket components than they do stock components.
By 1964, this is what the NHRA "legal" Super Stockers looked like: The Dodge & Plymouth Hemis. Together, total production was 271 vehicles. The Ford Thunderbolt. Total production was 127 units (all of them built by Dearborn Steel & Tubing, not even off the Ford factory producion line). Just as a comparison, in 1962, Chevy produced 8,909 cars with the 409 engine, with 99.9% of them sold off the showroom floors... Basically, that was it. By 1964, S/S had become a 2-brand class inside of two years (Dodge & Plymouth vs. Ford). And it's probably safe to say that none of these vehicles were showroom available to the general public...
I must be seeing things but it looks to me that the stahls got hooked ? I have real junior stocker headers Hooker's on my 57 wonder what the difference between the two were and if one could tell performance wise hard to find either im still hunting for a set of 55-57 stahls I love my hookers