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History NHRA Junior Stock

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by colesy, Aug 12, 2007.

  1. George Klass
    Joined: Dec 31, 2007
    Posts: 1,076

    George Klass
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    1961 Pontiac HP ratings, talk about confusion. Here are several different HP ratings to choose from...
    009_238_orig.jpg

    009_239_orig.jpg

    2963860.jpg

    7297431_2_orig (1).jpg

    8316380.jpg

    58374017-4245320642152126-5114701154931965952-o_orig.jpg

    gkpont61ss_1_orig.jpg
    The Standard SD-389 was rated at 368 HP.
     
  2. Unique Rustorations
    Joined: Nov 15, 2018
    Posts: 623

    Unique Rustorations
    Member

    Love the pics!! Yes the standard SD was rated at 368 but his car was originally ordered as a 348 tripower non-SD car. I’m assuming he added the parts but I don’t know that. Randy


    Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
     
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  3. George Klass
    Joined: Dec 31, 2007
    Posts: 1,076

    George Klass
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Before 1962, "factory approved" or "optional" parts (with legal factory part numbers) could be added to the original equipment engines. Sometimes these parts were in short supply (as in only 10 sets were produced) in which case, the S/S cars were not approved to race in the S/S class at the NHRA U.S. Nationals in '61, but were put into the Optional Super Stock class (OS/S or OS/SA). By 1962, all the cars had to have engines that were "factory installed", although I recall issues with "non factory installed" parts at the Nationals again, and some cars getting pushed into the Factory Experimental class...
     
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  4. Well, it said it was a big block! On the net..Must be true.
     
  5. Unique Rustorations
    Joined: Nov 15, 2018
    Posts: 623

    Unique Rustorations
    Member

    Yes I understand that for ‘61 and assume that is what happened to their ‘61. Do you know the whereabouts of their ‘61 by chance? Randy


    Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
     
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  6. George Klass
    Joined: Dec 31, 2007
    Posts: 1,076

    George Klass
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I don't know, however, you can contact Carol and Lloyd's son, Steve, on Facebook.
    https://www.facebook.com/steve.cox.3572
     
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  7. slowmotion
    Joined: Nov 21, 2011
    Posts: 3,330

    slowmotion
    Member

    Question for you guys in the know. Was it required that the HP rating be clearly displayed in the stock class's? Points, national events only? Or strictly up to the owner?
    Love this thread & the input btw....thanks!
     
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  8. George Klass
    Joined: Dec 31, 2007
    Posts: 1,076

    George Klass
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Nope, there was no requirement to post the displacement or the advertised HP.

    As long as we are discussing the Pontiacs in Stock Car drag racing, the question of "how stock were the stockers" comes up. I'm sure that everyone knows the A/FX Pontiac Tempest that Hayden Proffitt and Loyd Cox (Carol's hubby) put together for the '62 NHRA Winternationals not only won the class (with Hayden driving), but also won the class at the NHRA Nationals later that year with Lloyd driving. How stock was the Pontiac engine in that little Tempest?
    60829705_10219075296773992_4489958575015198720_n (1).jpg
    The 421 engine was 434 cubic inches at the Winternats (0.60 overbore was NHRA legal) and a whopping 487 cubes at the NHRA Nationals. This too was "legal". The NHRA Rulebook for Factory Experimental in '62 stated: "Any engine or options listed by the automobile manufacturer for the engine model are accepted only if the engine or options are listed with and accepted by the NHRA." How many Pontac racers knew that a stroker crank was avaialable from Pontiac in 1962? I would say only three people knew that, Hayden Proffitt, Lloyd Cox, and someone in the NHRA Tech Dept...
     
  9. Terry Bell
    Joined: Apr 21, 2016
    Posts: 189

    Terry Bell

    The 1960/1961 SD combos were "over the counter" parts available only. That is why later in stocker racing NHRA history ( I think it was 1972) that the 60/61 SD's were disallowed. The combo was not available as a factory direct order. The 348 HP was the hottest engine available direct from the factory. Except for the tri-power the SD parts included the NASCAR block, crankshaft and rods, heads, FORGED pistons, and several different solid lifter cams. The 1962 was the first year you could order the SD (421) combo factory direct so it is still allowed in NHRA stock today with or without Alum. fenders.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2019
  10. Terry Bell
    Joined: Apr 21, 2016
    Posts: 189

    Terry Bell

    Correct .
     
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  11. Terry Bell
    Joined: Apr 21, 2016
    Posts: 189

    Terry Bell

    I'm not 100% sure but I believe Loyd was killed on a motorcycle. Carol never remarried an passed away in a seniors home of cancer at an advanced age. Two great people in the history of stocker, S/S, and FX drag racing. !
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2019
  12. Jimbo17
    Joined: Aug 19, 2008
    Posts: 3,959

    Jimbo17
    Member

    Sounds like there were a lot of games being played in the stock classes back in those day's

    Jimbo
     
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  13. Terry Bell
    Joined: Apr 21, 2016
    Posts: 189

    Terry Bell

    Just like today !
     
  14. Jimbo17
    Joined: Aug 19, 2008
    Posts: 3,959

    Jimbo17
    Member

    I used to go to the drag strip back in the mid 60's to watch the match races where the person who won 3 out of 5 races was the winner.
    What I never realized until years later was that the races were fixed by the promoter ahead of time kind of like wrestling.

    I met a guy from Texas who raced his car in many of the match races back in those day's and he told me the story of just how the show was run by the promoters and remember back in those day's there was only a handful of guy's running the shows.

    When match racing Sox & Martin he was told which races he would win in advance and when he said he did not want to do it that way the promoter reminded him that he promoted match races at drag strips from Maine to California and many of the states in between and if he wanted to be part of the shows he would have to agree to go along with the program.

    True Story!
    Jimbo
     
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  15. Poncho60
    Joined: Jan 23, 2011
    Posts: 278

    Poncho60
    Member
    from N Illinois

    If I remember correctly, the block for the top street 348 hp 389 was the same as the SD. Also the pics of the 61s w the 373 hp lettering were actually 421s, not 389s.
     
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  16. Terry Bell
    Joined: Apr 21, 2016
    Posts: 189

    Terry Bell

    When I hung around with the guys I mentioned above in the self named " Indian Tribe" some used the standard 389 block and those with $$$$$ had the NASCAR version block. There was a Heavy Duty block for NASCAR but very hard to get unless you knew someone with connections as most had been blown up or damaged in circle track racing. Even as early as 1964 the SD head (aka NASCAR head) was getting harder to find a good set. I remember John Walker blew an engine in Sam Sameuals 1960 Starfire at Aquasco on a time run right after he bought it and he was in a panic as the heads were hard to find even in 1965.. He was relieved when he found out that just the short block was damaged where it kicked out a rod.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2019
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  17. loudbang
    Joined: Jul 23, 2013
    Posts: 40,276

    loudbang
    Member

    Lucky Larsen Metropolitan Dodge

    lucky larsen metropolitan dodge.jpg
     
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  18. slowmotion
    Joined: Nov 21, 2011
    Posts: 3,330

    slowmotion
    Member

    Thank you George. Appreciate the posts by you and others in this thread. Your site is a great history lesson as well, thank you for that too!
     
  19. loudbang
    Joined: Jul 23, 2013
    Posts: 40,276

    loudbang
    Member

  20. loudbang
    Joined: Jul 23, 2013
    Posts: 40,276

    loudbang
    Member

    I wonder if this had any effect on the NHRA declaring Sedan Deliverys trucks and allowing the hydro?

    posted by hemidav in the vintage thread

    1 hemidav.jpg
     
  21. 56sedandelivery
    Joined: Nov 21, 2006
    Posts: 6,695

    56sedandelivery
    Member Emeritus

    ^^^^Had everything in the world with it^^^^. Sedan Deliveries were built, titled, and licensed as TRUCKS, even though they were built on a PASSENGER car chassis and used passenger car body panels for the most part. As above, they were only in the truck brochures and not the passenger car brochures. The Hydro was never factory installed in a Sedan Delivery, but since it was a "truck"..........................................NHRA allowed the Hydro to be installed, sort of through a loophole in the rules. And, I'm pretty sure the factory never installed/sold a dual quad V-8 engine either, let alone fuel injection. I was reading through my 2018 NHRA ruleboook last night, and we've sort of returned to yesteryear; 3 speed automatics are allowed in ALL the TRI-Five cars, as well as aftermarket blocks, rotating assemblies, etc. Stock? Nor hardly. I am Butch/56sedandelivery.
     
  22. Shain
    Joined: Jun 2, 2016
    Posts: 63

    Shain
    Member
    from Omaha

    The hydro was though...available in the 55 V-8 pick up. Maybe that's why NHRA allow it in the delivery.
    May have been in the 56 pick ups too.
     
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  23. 56sedandelivery
    Joined: Nov 21, 2006
    Posts: 6,695

    56sedandelivery
    Member Emeritus

    Actually, the Hydro was available in 53/54 through 64/66 Chev/GMC P.U. Trucks. The Hydro first came out for the 1939 Olds line. Lincoln even used them in the early 50's. I am Butch/56sedandelivery.
     
  24. victor guilmino
    Joined: Nov 1, 2016
    Posts: 6

    victor guilmino

    Ok Pontiac guys 58 Pontiac 285 4bbl
    300 3x2 315 fi but what was the 330 and. others cam???
     
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  25. loudbang
    Joined: Jul 23, 2013
    Posts: 40,276

    loudbang
    Member

    George Cureton Toyko Rose SD :)

    george_cureton_01.jpg
     
  26. Poncho60
    Joined: Jan 23, 2011
    Posts: 278

    Poncho60
    Member
    from N Illinois

    Those hi hp 58 Pontiacs were race motors. Cam difference at a minimum for sure (I think ISKY). Probably a compression bump too. Not sure what else. Could not get these motors complete from the factory.
     
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  27. George Klass
    Joined: Dec 31, 2007
    Posts: 1,076

    George Klass
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I honestly feel that the NHRA Stock Class rules for 1962 were the zenith for the stock catagory. Basically, the rules stated that if it wasn't produced by the factory, and sold by dealers to the public, it would not be classified as "stock", (with very minor exceptions such as headers, etc.).

    From the 1962 NHRA Rulebook:
    "All cars in stock classes manufactured after June 1, 1961, must be factory assembly-line produced and generally show-room available." From my perspective, that said it all. And there was blame on both sides for the downfall of the "stock" classes from that point on. The factories for trying to get a leg up on the competition by introducing "special parts" over the counter, and NHRA for caving in to the factories and allowing it to happen. NHRA classes such as "Limited Production" and "Optional Super Stock" and even "Factory Experimental" should never have happened, in my opinion. If the vehicle was a factory produced, show room available "stock" car, it could be permitted to run as a stocker, and if not, it should have been shuffled off to one of the Gasser Classes, or in the case of the Altered Wheelbase cars, to the Altered Classes (which NHRA did do). Today, the Stock Cars probably have more aftermarket components than they do stock components.
     
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  28. George Klass
    Joined: Dec 31, 2007
    Posts: 1,076

    George Klass
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    By 1964, this is what the NHRA "legal" Super Stockers looked like:
    33994731-10215331451015939-1456183574804824064-n-zpsixo0oulc-1_orig.jpg
    The Dodge & Plymouth Hemis. Together, total production was 271 vehicles.

    fordtboltss-1_orig.jpg
    The Ford Thunderbolt. Total production was 127 units (all of them built by Dearborn Steel & Tubing, not even off the Ford factory producion line).

    Just as a comparison, in 1962, Chevy produced 8,909 cars with the 409 engine, with 99.9% of them sold off the showroom floors...

    Basically, that was it. By 1964, S/S had become a 2-brand class inside of two years (Dodge & Plymouth vs. Ford). And it's probably safe to say that none of these vehicles were showroom available to the general public...
     
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  29. jailbird
    Joined: Jun 18, 2015
    Posts: 148

    jailbird

    I must be seeing things but it looks to me that the stahls got hooked ?
    I have real junior stocker headers Hooker's on my 57
    wonder what the difference between the two were and if one could tell performance wise
    hard to find either im still hunting for a set of 55-57 stahls I love my hookers
     
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  30. loudbang
    Joined: Jul 23, 2013
    Posts: 40,276

    loudbang
    Member


    AHEM probably just a sticker to get contingency money :rolleyes:
     
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