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Technical Living with 6v--How is it, really?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by squirrel, Apr 30, 2019.

  1. Truck64
    Joined: Oct 18, 2015
    Posts: 5,325

    Truck64
    Member
    from Ioway

    It seems to be a given that the RPM or speed of engine turnover has a direct effect on how easily an engine starts. Is that really true? Won't Model T engines sometimes start without turnover if setup just so, aka "free start"? Just wonderin'.
     
  2. bchctybob
    Joined: Sep 18, 2011
    Posts: 5,190

    bchctybob
    Member

    Needs a tune up? No compression? Not holding his mouth just right?
    Six volts or 12, that video is a perfect example of why we hot rod stuff. After all the start up anxiety, once it starts its still a weak pimp. I'd be looking for a 360/TF combo to stick in there. Just sayin'
     
  3. Ebbsspeed
    Joined: Nov 11, 2005
    Posts: 6,250

    Ebbsspeed
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    There are "starterless" technologies available that use direct fuel injection, such as the system that Mazda developed quite a few years ago. See link below:
    https://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/10/mazdas_new_smar.html#more
     
    Truck64 likes this.
  4. Hemi Joel
    Joined: May 4, 2007
    Posts: 1,528

    Hemi Joel
    Member
    from Minnesota

    The HUdson is looking good, Hemi Squirrel! We drove around in the 49 pPymouth all day yesterday and today. Coming home tonight with the lights on, I thought of this thread, so I snapped a couple pics of the headlights in action. 6V positive ground, original generator was rebuilt in '95, new, original style wiring kit from YnZ's in '93. THe current battery is ancient, but still hanging in there.

    IMG_20190512_222541931.jpg IMG_20190512_222906040.jpg 49right.jpg
     
    LSGUN, plym_46, impala4speed and 4 others like this.
  5. hemihotrod66
    Joined: May 5, 2019
    Posts: 968

    hemihotrod66
    Member

     
  6. hemihotrod66
    Joined: May 5, 2019
    Posts: 968

    hemihotrod66
    Member

    I have used both 6 and 12 volt system and as a young guy 6 volts is all we had...Just use heavy cables with 6 volts...I still have an original A model which is 6 volts and have never had much trouble with it...Of course the early cars didn't have much electronics on them either but old tube radios sure pulled some juice from the battery...If your car was made for 6 volts you shouldn't have much of a problem but don't try to run 6 volt stuff for any length of time on 12 volts especially lights or instruments...
     
    squirrel likes this.
  7. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 55,942

    squirrel
    Member

    I did some fiddling with the gauges, the gas gauge and temp gauge use a voltage regulator (they are thermal gauges), it was originally designed to provide a constant 5 volts. After installing an electronic 5v regulator, and seeing what the gauges do, I decided to reconnect the original regulator...they work exactly the same. So, you can indeed run 51 Hudson electric gauges on 12v, if you keep the original regulator in the circuit.

    of course I neglected to mention that neither of the gauges reads accurately, they are both a lot lower on the scale than they should be. Perhaps the gauges are tired? I'm going to try an adjustable voltage regulator, see if it makes them read higher. The gas gauge reads about 1/3 tank when the tank is full, the temp gauge moves up off the C mark when the engine is around 190 degrees.
     
  8. Rusty O'Toole
    Joined: Sep 17, 2006
    Posts: 9,657

    Rusty O'Toole
    Member

    Model T, and some other pre 1920 cars would start without a starter. They had a trembler coil ignition that produced a continuous buzzing spark. Think of a coil connected to a buzzer making a shower of sparks. If the engine was warm and there was gas in the cylinder, the engine would frequently start by itself. If it didn't, a gentle pull on the crank would bring the next cylinder up on compression. Early cars had a special fitting on the cylinder to allow pouring a shot of gas in for quick starting.

    Expensive cars had dual ignition, the trembler coil for starting and a magneto for high speed. The trembler coil doesn't work very well over 2000 RPM. While a magneto gets stronger the faster it revs. Cars like Rolls Royce and Pierce Arrow had 2 completely separate ignitions and 2 spark plugs in each cylinder.
     
  9. Ned Ludd
    Joined: May 15, 2009
    Posts: 5,026

    Ned Ludd
    Member

    I'm not sure if that's so much due to the trembler coils, though I suppose the multiple sparks should help ignition under non-optimal conditions, as the fact that ignition advance was adjustable by the driver. I know that early cars thus equipped can often be started in such cases by fiddling with the advance, even without a second trembler ignition. I like the idea of a manual supplementary starting ignition, though, because one of my least favourite parts of a car is the starter motor.
     
    64 DODGE 440 likes this.
  10. lostmind
    Joined: Aug 21, 2011
    Posts: 3,309

    lostmind
    Member

    Your starter will spin that engine great , but they engage hard and usually tear up the ring gear.
    They also have a habit of jamming and the engine won't turn. A lot of guys think their engine locked up , when it's just the starter jammed.
    I've had 13 Hudsons , both 6 volt and 12 volt conversions.
    When everything is RIGHT , I preferred the 6 volt set up.
    You can get the starter rewound to 12 volts. I never did , but had spares .
     
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  11. TrailerTrashToo
    Joined: Jun 20, 2018
    Posts: 1,289

    TrailerTrashToo
    Member

    It lives.
    1951 Hudson.jpg
    This evening at Sonic.
     
    kidcampbell71 likes this.
  12. 64 DODGE 440
    Joined: Sep 2, 2006
    Posts: 4,421

    64 DODGE 440
    Member
    from so cal

    Don't know about Hudsons, but I had several 6 volt VWs converted to 12 volt and always just used the 6 volt starters. Never had a problem with them and they cranked just fine.
     
  13. theboss20
    Joined: Dec 30, 2018
    Posts: 274

    theboss20

    Why? What is it you don’t like about a starter motor?


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  14. theboss20
    Joined: Dec 30, 2018
    Posts: 274

    theboss20

    Now you can retro-fit most 6v starters with a “cushion” drive that absorbs much of the violent engagement issues.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  15. lostmind
    Joined: Aug 21, 2011
    Posts: 3,309

    lostmind
    Member

    Interesting , never saw one. Would be worth it in the long term. I had a few 10 degree mornings with a jammed starter , not fun in the snow.
     
  16. hennmann
    Joined: Jul 24, 2017
    Posts: 26

    hennmann

    Well put plym_46!
    I hear people bitch about yellow lights even on 12 volt generator systems as well. There are 6 volt halogen lights available on eeeevilPay in the 7 inch headlights as well!
    First I see people using 12 volt cables on 6 volts being almost half the gauge. Next I see people using rotten cables with those lousy battery cable ends that are held on with a strap and a couple of bolts. As for yellow lights many don't check their voltages as the mechanical regulator voltage control spring will relax over time and needs to be tweaked to raise to the proper voltage. Unless your living in Arizona, Nevada or other hot locations 14.2 for 12 volts or 7.20 for a 6 volt is better. Too little and the batteries start to deteriorate or sulphate over time. Slightly on the high side you will have to add water more often and I have always got better life slightly over charging than under causing the battery to be always hanging on by finger nails! How is your starter?? If mine is starting to be a bit lazy I take it out and turn the commutator bars, replace brushes and of course replace bushings or just lubricate them if they are dry. If the brushes are still within spec I still replace and performing these steps makes the starter perform like new but of course this is if there are no open or shorted windings in the armature or field coils. How long have I been running 6 volts? I purchased my first 6 volt car a 1950 Mercury Sport Sedan in the early 80's and now I'm 58 and still own it! For 2-3 years I ran an 8 volt battery but the required voltage to charge it was simply pushing the lights and radio a bit too hard and battery chargers or maintainers was a royal PITA as many 6 volt are too low and 12 is too high. 6,8,12 battery maintainers are out there but special order for myself. The battery went dead and I replaced it with a new 6 volt of the highest CCA that would fit in the box. I have also had better luck with generator systems than alternator and other than brushes, bearing/bushing I have only replaced one regulator because one of the coils burned out. Using a point file and properly setting gaps, current, and voltage keeps them going strong. The majority of problems are people not understanding proper operation and maintenance just like Carburetors and of course if they don't understand proper maintenance some are quick to blame and needlessly convert to an alternator and 12 volts.
     
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  17. Truck64
    Joined: Oct 18, 2015
    Posts: 5,325

    Truck64
    Member
    from Ioway

    Halogens won't help any if sufficient voltage and current isn't supplied. They will draw a bit more current (watts) than Tungsten, but are well within the design margin for original wiring. Corroded connections and high resistance imo are what roast switches as well as yellow lights.

    Generator systems esp. need to run "hotter" than many think, the first problem people run into is using modern digital voltmeters for measurements. They didn't have those in 1956, and a generator/regulator produces a chopped DC waveform. An accurate low ranging Analog voltmeter is the way to go.

    A point file will not fit between the Autolite type regulator points at least. Spoon or riffler (curved) files will work here. The cutout, voltage, and current points need to be dressed once in a while or there will be drama. Once a year would not be too often.

    Look at this chart - voltage charging set point is temperature based, and generators are a fair bit higher than newer alternator charging systems.

    IMG_0928.JPG
     
  18. I've been running the same Interstate battery in my old Plymouth for the last 4 1/2 years. No problems except finding long lasting replacement bulbs.
     
  19. hennmann
    Joined: Jul 24, 2017
    Posts: 26

    hennmann

    Actually you can purchase the six volt Halogen in low wattage like our regular headlights. These Halogen headlights that are 6 volt are actually used in motorcycles that often run 6 volts. The gap in many mechanical regulators is adjustable which is also indicated by a proper gap setting so if the point file is too thick the gap can be increased temporarily as well. I would feel comfortable using a higher wattage headlamp in my 50's cars and even 60's+ because they actually used wiring back then compared to the pathetic thin light gauge now.
     
    Truck64 likes this.
  20. Since this thread popped up again-
    This is probably an anecdotal observation, but it seems like the Ford guys have bad luck on 6V overall, where the Delco-Remy/other brands seem to be doing okay...
     
  21. Garpo
    Joined: Jul 16, 2016
    Posts: 292

    Garpo

    Key to your decision is the overdrive.
    The solenoid has two windings. A high current one to pull the solenoid in, then a set of contacts open so a low current 'hold' winding can do just that - hold. The pull in high current side will survive on 12v because it only works for a fraction of a second. The hold circuit will over heat as it is 'on' all the time the o/d is in use.
    Those same solenoids were used by just about all brands that offered Warner overdrive as an option.
    Must be something around from the mid fifties on with a 12v solenoid. Even the big Jaguars used it.
    Get that sorted, the rest is easy. definitely a 12v vote from me.
    Garpo
     
    TrailerTrashToo likes this.
  22. Mike
    Joined: Mar 5, 2001
    Posts: 3,540

    Mike
    Member

    VW changed to 12v in 1967, the buses for that year still used to old transaxle. The only starter that would bolt on was the old 6v staerter, so '67 VW busses had 12v electrical system and came out of the factory wit a 6v starter.
     
  23. Truck64
    Joined: Oct 18, 2015
    Posts: 5,325

    Truck64
    Member
    from Ioway

    Sorta related, haven't tried it but VW or Bosch offered a solid state 12V generator voltage regulator for 70s era VW. Still available. As far as I know this is the only commercial type of its kind available for generators. Given the quality of the mechanical units sold today this is worth looking into, or useful in a pinch on a road trip.
     

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