History Classic Indy roadsters: Most beautiful oval racers ever?

Two somewhat obscure Kurtis Indy roadsters:
1) Greenman-Casale special of 1959, which had its driveline on the left and the engine laid over 72 degrees also to the left, to give strong weight bias to the inside of the turns. Driven by Bill Cheesbourg that year, car 53.
This car also attributed to Eddie Kuzma, so I am uncertain of it’s origins.
2) Tassi Vatis car of 1961 (not sure if that was the owner’s or sponsor’s name), which had a similar arrangement, except that the engine was tilted only 18 degrees to the left, not laid down. Driven by Chuck Hulse that year, car 37.
Haven’t been able to find any pictures of these cars. Anyone have any, under construction or complete, which you can share? Thanks in advance.

 

I found this pic, but it talks about it being 1961. Obviously has the layover engine, and was attributed to Greenman-Casale. Same car?

 

Thanks skot71, much appreciate your response. From the fuzzy picture I have seen in the HRM 1960 Indy preview, this does seem like the same car.

 

Here's where I found that pic.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/petersen-magazines-overflowed-l-rodders-racers-customizers-1961/

There's also a pic of a Vatis car, but you can't see if the engine is laid over. But again, it says it's '61.

 

The basic chassis for the Greenman Casale car was built in 57 by Eddie Kuzma though Ernie Casale probably put his own touches on it as he was a accomplished race car builder himself. For 1959 it was reworked to lay the engine over to the left. It has since been restored to its original configuration, so you should be able to find more info.

Tassi Vatis was a rich car owner out of N.Y. who self sponsored his cars some times and also had outside sponsors.

 

Thanks again! From the car number and the general appearance, this is the right car.

 

Thanks once again Rootie. Nice shot of the pit stop with the car up on the jacks.
Also grateful for the history snippets, which give context to the pics.

 

A fairly radical version of the Indy roadster, by George Salih. Engine laid down on the left but angled to give right side drive, driver on the left:

Even more radical, by Eddie Kuzma. Engine laid down on the left, left side drive, driver on the right:

Could this be considered the most radical roadster of all, no surprise it's by Smokey Yunick? Engine and drive line in the centre, driver to the left:

Driver shockingly exposed, but who thought of that in those days? Most unusual chassis structure, suspension, fuel storage, steering and maybe some other innovations too.

 

de Dion rear suspension was one of the unusual features of this car.
And the clutch and gearbox had some sort of combined control, probably provided by sponsor Hurst.
Anyone have any pics or info about these? Thanks.

 

There was an article in Open Wheel or Circle Track on Smokey's Sidecar. Smokey contributed to the article as I recall, and I'm pretty certain it was Circle Track, as he had a write-in column in it at the time. Late eighties sounds about right, and he did discuss the shifter in it.

 

Do search here on the HAMB, it's been discussed several times with many pics.

 

Thanks for the lead. Am trying to track it down.

 

Thanks Rootie. I might have known this has been discussed before. Am going to search for all that material.
And yet again, thanks for the great pics.

 

1949/50 Ray Brady special.
Fitted with a Sparks 6 (presumably similar to the one fitted in the well-known Little Six), which itself makes it almost unique.
Reputedly it's chassis frame was made of aluminium sheet folded and riveted to make a box section, and the two rails thus formed were linked by cast magnesium cross-members. That must have been the first such use of these materials.
It seems the car still exists, could it still have the original frame?

 

At one time there was a registry of all the surviving Indy roadsters including replicas and recreations.I haven't been able to find it for quite some time.Does a list like this still exist?It was a great referece source.

 

The 1949 and 1950 Brady cars were 2 different cars. The 49 was the ex-Thorn car and the 50 car was, I believe, a Gordon Schroeder built car. I don't know any details of the Brady car but Schroeder did build the Blakely Oil Spl. which was very similar and did have a aluminum/mag. frame and IFS. It has been restored and there is a lot of info and pics on google.

 

Thanks again Rootie for clearing up another historical error of mine, and for the Blakely lead. Yes I believe Gordon Schroeder built the car I have in mind. His name doesn't seem to figure largely thereafter, maybe he left the Indy scene?

 

Gordon may not have built any more Indy cars, but his steering boxes were still being produced until fairly recently, I think, and he also had parts for the Sampson midget engine, if not complete engines for sale. His shop was a hangout for all kinds of LA hooligans.

 

1946 Indy winner, Sparks Little Six.
I believe this car was built when two-seater bodies were no longer required, yet it has the driver noticeably offset to the left (which sometimes happened when a two-seater was converted to single-seater).
Was the engine and driveline offset to the right, so as to make space for the driver to sit low on the left?
This was done on several GP racers from about 1926 onwards, so seems not too far fetched.

 

Haven't been able to find a picture showing this, but in "Car Life" in 1965, Griff Borgeson wrote:
"Two of the 1927 cars incorporated a completely radical innovation in driveline layout. These were the celebrated “offset” Duesies in which the engine was mounted at the right front corner of the frame and angled so that the ring and pinion could be located very close to the left rear wheel. Thus the driver was able to sit below the frame rails, and alongside the driveshaft instead of over it. Centre of gravity and car height were thus reduced in answer to Miller’s achievement of the same objectives with front wheel drive"
So the typical roadster features could go back a little farther than the Ross Page Special of 1946?

 

1926 Eldridge Spl.

 

Thanks Rootie for your response.
Took me a while to figure out why you posted pictures of the Eldridge Special (2-seat version). Found the following in a preview of the 1926 Indy 500:
“Very close attention has been paid to stream lining and to obtaining a low center of gravity, the two seater having a total height of only 31 inches, a perfectly flat under surface and presenting a very unusual appearance. Front and rear axles and springs are mounted above the frame members; the engine is offset to the left in the frame, the differential is out of center, and the driver's seat is below the top of the propeller shaft housing.”

And this pic shows the driving seat offset as clearly as can be:


So I’m guessing that you are pointing out that even the 1927 “offset Duesie” was not the first, the Eldridge Special was, at least among cars to appear at Indy?

 

Is this one of the "offset Duesies"?

Seems unlikely, as the driving seat is on the left

 

I guess it all depends on what one considers to be a "roadster" The AAA and, later, USAC never had a official designation of a "roadster" They didn't care how a car was configured as long as the driver and engine all fit within the wheelbase/track width/bodywork regulations. I consider a true roadster to have both the driver and engine/driveline offset from centerline of the framework. That being the case I believe the Eldridge Spl. was the first "roadster" but there could be earlier examples I'm not aware of as prewar Indy isn't my strong suit. You mentioned the Ross Page Spl. and using this critera it wasn't a true roadster as the engine/driveline was centered and just the driver was offset. This of course would apply to all two man cars also.

 

Another car of interest is the Talbot-Lago of 1941. Though it was a DNQ it does meet the above critera of a roadster,

 

Man, that is a nice looking car, at least it is looking at the right side of it. Shades of later NOVI cars. Gotta love the driver's door!

 

Thanks Rootie. Much appreciate your contributions and your views on what constitutes a roadster.
My knowledge of the subject is very limited, but I understand that on the dirt, only the upright cars with a fairly high CG and little or no inside weight bias have been consistently successful. Nor is a high top speed a factor on the mostly much shorter dirt ovals. Starting from this premise, seems to me that a roadster would ideally have all the following features:
Offset engine/driveline and/or offset driver, to lower the CG.
Inside weight bias, often by suitably arranging the above offsets. Sometimes only by using suspension offset.
Low frontal area, to help with top-end speed at Indy in particular. Offsets can help with this too.
It's really academic now anyway, but even cars with some, but not all, of these features could qualify.
The Talbot GP car which appeared at Indy in 1929, DNQ, meets only the first and last of these criteria. Same as the Eldridge Spl; both roadsters, I like to think.
At Brooklands, not Indy, but a similar car.

 

https://www.classicdriver.com/en/article/cars/coachbuilt-caterham-ultimate-reborn-classic

Very interesting. I'm daydreaming already.

 

Can't find a picture of it:
1947 Olson Offy, appears in the Indy entry list as car #6, but apparently DNQ.
Specification appears to have been a fairly conventional upright car with a 270 Offy, except that the rear suspension was independent, using four (?) quarter-elliptic springs each side. And still with a typical beam axle at the front. Must have seemed like a good idea at the time.
Anyone have any pics, particularly of the rear end of the car?
Did it continue in this form, or did it revert to the normal live axle? Subsequent racing record?