Technical Living with 6v--How is it, really?

Take it off the thru bolt and look at the underside a see if there is a number...like D-7016


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start it up and see if it makes 6 volts.

 

Squirrel, this is the kind of stuff I'd ask you? I'm 12 volt/alt all the way guy (did the MAD electric 3 wire conversion on my 61 Biscayne and it was a huge difference) but the idea of an early overdrive is sweet. I wouldn't want to risk it either ...I k now this prob doesn't help much...

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nice car!

also it's not just 6V, it's positive-ground. lamps, old (non-electronic) gauges, solenoids don't care about polarity, but electronics does.

if the OD solenoid is the biggest problem, that you can deal with by putting a big fat power resistor in series with it to limit it's saturation current (as others pointed out).

the R10 OD solenoid has a pair of contacts and two windings; pull-in coil and hold-in coil. i'll assume yours does too.

i think one my (unmentionable-brand) factory service manuals lists steady-state and pull-in currents for the 12V solenoids; the 6V would be roughly double that. solenoids are un-fussy. i could look it up if you want.

you'd want a resistor value to limit the steady-state; this would *probably* be fine for the pull-in. solenoids are inductors and they're specifically not resistors; ohms law doesn't apply to them, current varies with time (minimum at first, then increases to saturation).

the resistor is gonna be a big fat oddball, likely surplus. probably cost you $10. within a factor of 10 of 1 ohm, ... lessee, if hold current is 10 amps, and you want to drop 6V, that's 6 * 10 = 60 watts dissipated in that resistor. 6 volts, 10 amps, the resistor would be 6 / 10 = .6 ohms, probably find a half ohm resistor. you want a 100 watt resistor and it will GET HOT. luckily they're generally big fat ceramic or metal packages. 0.5 ohm, 100 watt resistor is doable.

ha! amazon has one for < 8 bucks! https://www.amazon.com/a12050500ux0003-Aluminum-Chassis-Wirewound-Resistor/dp/B008MLL3JQ

it's sort of a dumb solution but it's bluntly straightforward. probably what i'd do.

 

I always suggest taking a center tap off the battery as the easiest and cheapest and best way to get 6v. I don't know why nobody agrees.

 

I found this link that you might find useful if it is an AC Delco unit. I have my notes from my Precision charging system tester, and if I find any useful information, I will post it.
I know I have an old AC Delco book here, but I have not looked at in so long, that I don't know where to begin to look for it. I will attempt to find it tonight.
https://www.chevyhardcore.com/news/...nging-a-voltage-regulator-on-a-vintage-chevy/
Bob

 

That's only part of the story, and not that big a part at that...

While the ability to use smaller wire saved some money, it didn't cut costs by half. Most of the harness cost is labor, and that part is pretty much unchanged. There were two big factors that decided the switch...

Charging system limitations. Generators are generally current limited, with typical output being 30 amps. There's larger units out there (Caddys and Lincolns come to mind) but they get bulkier as size goes up. You've also got the wear on the brushes/commutator to contend with. Every bit of output current goes through the brushes, more current equals more arcing, more arcing means faster brush and commutator wear. 30 amps was typical as that still offered decent service longevity as the tradeoff, although brush replacement was still a regular thing. So a 6V generator that outputs 30A produces 180 watts. With the same 30A output but at 12V, you now have 360 watts. With one change, you've doubled the charging system capacity.

The other big one is voltage drop. While it's true that the switch to 12v allowed the manufacturers to use smaller wire in the harnesses, you have to remember that they weren't generous with wire size with either system. The real issue is system grounds; both systems use the same grounding methods but any issues are magnified in a 6V system. This is why guys harp on making sure your grounds are all good if you're using 6V.

Now, voltage drop is independent of system voltage. It only has to do with the current and resistance in the circuit. A few examples: Voltage drop is calculated by multiplying circuit current by the resistance. The formula is VD = IR, VD is the drop, I is the current, and R is the resistance.

So lets say you have a 'extra' .1 ohm resistance at a ground point, and the circuit current is 15 amps. That gives a drop of 1.5V at the ground point, or 25% loss of your total voltage in a 6V system. That would be the equivalent of pulling two plug wires off on a V8; you'll definitely notice it.

Same circuit, same drop but at 12V; 1.5V is only 12.5% loss. Now add in that if it's the same type of load (say a headlight with the same wattage), the current at 12V will be 1/2 of the 6V item, now your drop is down to about 6%, or 1/4 of the percentage loss you'll see in a 6V system.

Note that VD goes up with current; that's why slow/hard starting is common on 6V systems as amounts of extra resistance too small to measure with home meters can drastically reduce starting voltage.

 

One thing to check is the battery cables. If you have a slow starter on a 6 volts with a new 6V battery. Then you need to update the cables to 00 size.

We did this with my wife’s with a ‘33, it literally cranks like a new 12 volt. And starts quick.

Also note that now you can get 6 volt LEDs for all the lights.

 

Jim, I found my books for my Peerless automotive electrical system analyzer. I need to know which voltage regulator are you wanting to test. Is it the older, remote AC regulator for an alternator or the Delco unit for a generator system?
Some of the information will need some conversion, because it was specifically written for this analyzer. I looked at the hookups, and believe that you can get a lot of useful information from the setup diagrams. You will certainly have an excellent idea of how these old units work.
If you are interested, just let me know which regulator for which you need the information and I will scan the pages for you. I can scan the information for you.
I just remembered that I may still have the information from an automotive course I took back in 1959. If I can find this material, it had extensive coverage of the generator regulators of the period.
Bob

 

I found links to the GM generator and regulator service bulletin. Both files are pdf, and can be downloaded and saved.
http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/delco_remy_generator.pdf
Regulator
http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/delco_remy_regulator.pdf
Here is a link to a Delco-Remey service bulletin
http://www.ruiter.ca/mc/info/PDFs/1R-116.pdf
Link to an article on generator to alternator conversion.
https://mgaguru.com/mgtech/electric/ac101.htm
Bob

 

Personal experience. I built the Buick using 6V. Did everything mentioned regards cables. 00 on both. I had the generator and starter rebuilt at an old auto electric shop. I had NO problems.

Then came the OT fueling system. It has to have 12V. I had rewired the car, using one size larger wire throughout. Since 12v does not need as large wire, I was in good shape. A simple GM 1 wire alternator, bypassing the regulator, was used. Changed all bulbs. A runtz resistor for the fuel gauge. Voltage drop thingie for the radio. 12v battery, which I just replaced after six years and 15000+ miles. I am a happy camper.

FWIW, either way is going to work.

Love the Hudson.

Ben

 

Can’t answer question but nothing like a Hudson - Essex - Terraplane. Stepdowns are already sleak. Nice ride.

 

One 6v issue that I've experienced with both my '48 Ford Fordor and my '47 Ford Woody was that with a lead/acid battery (even a fresh one), the engine would crank over great, but the voltage would drop low enough that there wouldn't be enough spark for the engine to fire (especially on cold starts). I solved this in both machines by changing to a 6v Optima gel cell battery.

 

Thanks again for the additional experiences!

I'm leaning towards 12v, mainly for cost reasons. A normal lousy 6V battery is a hundred bucks, a good one is two hundred bucks. A pair of good ones (to let me run 6v accessories easily) is four hundred bucks! . Getting a generator and regulator, or a 6v alternator, will probably end up costing about a hundred bucks over what I can get 12v stuff working for.

I don't know how long I'll keep this car, so the life of the battery isn't a big concern right now.

I won't know what to do with the wiring until I get into it more. I don't want to replace the main under dash wiring, but if it looks too scary (insulation falling off when I touch wires), I'll have to.

It would be nice if I could find a few parts cars sitting around nearby...

 

Put a basic Speedway harness into it. I'm sure the OD can be piped in with little trouble. It may be easy for an auto-electric shop to convert the OD unit over to 12V, it is probably old as heck inside and it would be a cruising benefit.

 

If the wiring is in decent shape, fudge the system with a 8v battery - spins the starter like a 12v! the only downside is headlights burn out quicker. Did this for my '53 Chevy truck back in the late '70's, only tweek was setting the regulator to 9.2 volts, and carring a spare headlamp. Also, check rhe wire between the key-switch and coil for excessive resistance - ask me how I know! As others have said, SOLID connections and grounds are a MUST!

What size engine Jim? Twin H power? Hudsons had a great rep for handling - find a sway bar that fits, slap on a set of radials and go have FUN!!! Good Luck, Tim

 

My '40 Ford is 6v ( and positive ground) with an alternator and an Optima battery inside a Group 2 disguise case. In 15 years, it's given me no electrical problems. Good wiring and the correct battery and starter cables are essential. Also, you can never have too many grounds with 6v.

 

o/d solenoids can be pricey if you don't have one on hand. I have a customers car that they don't want to change from when they bought it (90's), so it still has the original 6v wiring and system with a 12v alternator. It goes to a 12v battery with a 6v tap, so 6v to the whole car, 12v to the starter and 12v charging. It did have an a/c system when they bought it, most likely that was the need for 12v. It's a shoebox Ford that's still positive ground......take a little paying attention when your checking electrical issues.

This is the place I have to get a battery from, but they do last a long time. They're on the second battery since '96.

http://antiqueautobattery.com/accessories.html

The new 6v batteries don't seem to last as long, but your do really need a automatic charger on it if your not going to drive it a lot. It uses almost all the 6v battery has to start and if the battery is a little low it can be fun. Also if you plan to drive it at night it'll be fun also, I run the shoebox at night sometimes and even with the high beams on it still sucks. You already that though .

 

Just read the first page......nobody talking about an 8V battery ? You can bump up the regulator so the generator will charge it....but I read alternator ? Good luck.....Tractor Supply is our local 8V battery supplier but I'm sure there is others.

 

I could live with the slow cranking 'cause the old Packard always started, but the dim lighting bothered me

 

For those who like 8 volts, how do you put a dead one on a charger?

 

Get a 6/12 volt battery with the solenoid on top and you can start on 12 and run on 6, I did this in my 36 Cord which is a big 300+ inch V8 and it worked well.

 

My Merc also has the original set-up, 6v positive ground.
Starting is ok as long as the battery is ok. As I wrote in another thread, my last battery only lasted 2 years and it was a rather expensive "quality" battery.

The thing that bothers me most are the headlights which are extremely weak. Driving in a dark night in the rain is really dangerous at times. I have found no way to make them stronger.
The PO of the car even was an electrical engineer with all testing equipment you can think of and he also could not solve this problem.
Rear and brake lights are sufficient though.

 

Use (6) volt batteries and connected in series gives you 12 volts, but you can tap the first battery and get your 6 volts.

 

@squirrel
Do the 12v conversion
Here is a couple part numbers for a 12v to 6v reducer
BWD VR1
STD RU100
AC U601
Use that for your guages and overdrive

 

Ran my 53 Ford flathead Ranch wagon on 6 volts and it would not start when it got hot outside. Converted to a 6 volt alternator from a company from Kansas and that ended my issues . I had good headlights and the car started every time. I used it as a daily driver for almost 2 years and put over 15,000 miles with no issues. My overdrive worked perfect as well. Bought a battery from NAPA and it was still fine after 2 years.

 

Reading the thread is kind of interesting, the 12V people seems to be quite fanatic to convince everyone for the true religion...?
However, the bottom line is; do you want to understand and use the period technology which worked perfectly fine back then (why would it be worse today?) - or do you just want old looking shell to hide new parts?

Some argue over the cost of the batteries - Well, the cost difference btw. a 6V battery vs. 12V is peanuts compared to B&W R10 solenoid, whether you have to buy a 12V solenoid for conversion or replace a burn 6V solenoid.

Finally, the idea of using big power resistor to drop 12V to 6V for the solenoid is just plain stupid... To waste the power to useless heat in a resistor PLUS taking the risk the resistor fails overheated...?

Rusty o'Toole's comments make the most sense to me.

 

For those of you running 6 v and complaining about dim head lights freshen the ground from the lamp pigtail to the body, I did, made a big difference, the ground strap from body to chassis is key also. One more thing, most brake lamps of the era were powered through the head lamp switch. Repower your brake light switch through a direct line from the battery side of the starter solenoid or directly from the battery terminal. Running mine through an inline fuse. Result brighter brake light and less diming of head lamps at stop with brakes on.

 

Funny how some of these tech posts come to back to mind later. I was thinking of this trick today. Often thought I'd do this if needed.
Somebody even sells a combo 6&12 volt battery...pretty expensive though, I think.

 

6 volt starters do great with 12 volts.