Hi folks- New puzzle. I’ve tracked down a bizarre brake failure to a fluid leak from the banjo bolt when my steering is in full lock, because the bolt is hitting the frame. Only happens when the truck is running because - power steering. This is a 1956 Chevy 3100 with a Heidts Mustang 2 front clip. The brakes are SSBC Force 10 discs. 2” drop spindles. Strangely, the bolt holes on the calipers (2 per) are different diameters so I can’t move the hoses to a different hole - although I don’t think this would help. Limiting the steering would fix it. I have a GM power steering setup with the GM gear and pitman arm. Does anyone know how to limit the steering angle? Or have an alternative approach? Barring that, if I was to fabricate a steering stop on the frame, what should I have that stop hit? I’m leery of having the brake caliper jam against something like a nut... No good advice from Heidts unfortunately - I called. Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
Maybe a rubber bumper on the frame where it will be hitting anyhow. But if it pinching the line, you will want to see if the line angle can be moved a bit.
Steering boxes and racks have more travel than the arc of the steering arm on the knuckle. A simple stop on the control arm against the steering arm is needed to limit its maximum travel.
^^ You definitely require steering stops on each side on the lower control arms that provide a mechanical stop on the steering arms and not on the frame. The suspension cycles up and down and a frame bump stop is only a temporary band aid approach and treating the problem, not the cause. You could recess the pockets either side to provide clearance however as the suspension cycles up and down what would you do then if it caught and jammed somehow? I'm used to doing things differently down here as we need to comply with pretty strict engineering and safety rules when we build our cars. Down here that mistake wouldn't pass a tech. inspection and would be picked up earlier during mandatory 3-stage preregistration inspection process. Are you referring to the banjo brake hose bolts being different threads, is so swapping the banjo bolts might enable you to raise the hose? Even raising the brake hoses doesn't rectify the issue. Also how long are the hoses and how do they attach to the frame? On full lock to lock each way you require some slack in hoses to compensate for suspension movement. You don't want the brake hoses under stress because they are too short and stretched to their limit or in too tight a radius! Can you post some photos from the front showing steering arms in relation to control arm as you may be able to drill and tap a provision for a steering stop of sorts with jamb lock nut. Do you really require those big brakes, what brakes are usually fitted to a HEIDTS F/E and what mechanical steering stops are usually built in? Even swapping brakes and discs over to other more compact ones mightn't eliminate your issue. I find it ludicrous that HEIDTS would rely on R&P for steering stops given that lock to lock with tyre/rim & brake combinations in different frames could cause similar interference? All good in a straight line but NOT good when cornering. I do note however that there is a bump stop on lower control arm.
Wow, this thread is great. Thanks. Normally Heidts does Wilwood - fixed calipers. When I spoke with them they said they don’t recommend these SSBCs because they are fat. These SSBCs are two piston sliding calipers and pretty jumbo. One potential fix may be new calipers - not sure how the PO managed to drive this like this. I didn’t notice it initially. Re: hoses - there are two ports on the back of the caliper where you can bolt in the banjos. One is bigger than the other. You can use either as they are connected in the caliper reservoir behind the pistons. But per other comments, I doubt moving the hose will help. Here is the front of the control arm. Sadly, it looks like the tie rod will rub on the control arm. I did try a trick and duct taped a half inch nut on the control arm to stop the tie rod. Very Roadkill(woulda been better with zip ties). This did not limit travel enough, nor am I happy about pushing on my tie rod - it’s just gonna bend. Heidts suggested putting in a Mustang 2 rack so I could put in steering stops. But that’s gonna be a rebuild of my steering pump (well established that they are too powerful) and it’s a bunch of money, yada yada yada. What do you have the steering stops on control arms push on, typically? The spindle carrier? Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
I would run the brake hose downwards, then loop back up behind the impacted area. I would also make a mount for the hose and lose the tie wrap hose mount.
A normal stop will mounted to the lower control arm and contact the spindle or steering arm when you turn. That could be as simple as a piece of the right size angle iron cut and drilled to make a bracket that bolts to the flat spot on the plate of the control arm with a 1/2 inch or so bolt running though it that can be adjusted to contact the steering arm at the point you want it to stop. No welding, no real fabricating and not a big cost. Please excuse my quite crude drawing.
Thanks for the detailed explanation. This makes sense. Seems as if Classic performance makes something that might work - https://www.summitracing.com/parts/clp-5557ss-k/. But you are right - shouldn’t be that hard to fab up something basic. Again, thanks! Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
Your coils are inboard of the frame? Do you have any photos of when the MII was installed into the frame?
I don’t have photos of before - the front clip was installed by the PO (which is why I am struggling). The top of the coils are inboard, yes, with the frame rails pushed out. You can see that the front end has been grafted on. Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
I doesn't appear to be a MII front end with built in frame spring pockets like that. At first I thought that area was a hat for spring however since your additional photos it was what I thought it was. It's a front frame clip looking at this area and what 31Vicky with a Hemi posted above, OEM frame with a HEIDTS F/E Any idea what model clip was used as MII were fitted with front mounted R&P steering, your frame appears to use a front steer box or R&P? Personally I'd identify the clip and source OEM upper and lower control arms with spindles and brakes to replace those HEIDTS items and SSBC brakes. Is there a product / part number to identify the arms? It could be that narrow upper and lower arms we used to narrow the front wheel track to keep tyres from scrubbing on fenders and creating the current issues once the larger brake kit was fitted. Possibly with OEM control arms and a wider track interference won't occur. Then you may encounter problems with tyres fouling on fenders. This is a correctly designed steering stop for aftermarket control arms designed to work with stock steering arms. In left or right full lock the steering stop will come into contact with the extended vertical casting boss on the steering arm preventing over travel. Are you able to source an OEM frame and have the correct IFS kit fitted. Then then sell off the control arms along with those brakes to offset costs? Sure it'll cost money however it'll be a LOT safer and better than what you've inherited! This is another style of HEIDTS MII kit
No, it’s not. I’m not sure what it is. I had a similar thought but it doesn’t come in contact with anything. Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
Really interesting points. It makes sense - someone grafted on this different clip and just used Heidts control arms, not the whole clip. Thanks for the guidance! Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
I sure would like to see pics of the whole set up and truck. The problem here is this tread will get axed because of the subject matter. Because of that I’m reluctant to spend much time. My best guess is that’s a mid 70 front steer Camaro Clip. It’s installed too far back for correct wheel centering with correct control arms they moved the wheels forward with the different sweeping control arms and now nothing fits. I’ll bet it sits very low as well. https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/tech-camaro-clip-in-your-58-chevy-in-one-day.148978/
I spoke with Heidt's again about this just for some more detail. The control arms aren't made any more. They were narrowed to help pull the wheels inboard, which people liked, but gave rise to problems like this. The nub on the back of that control arm isn't threaded or anything - it's just a nub. But, it could be tapped and threaded. Alternative approaches are putting a different set of control arms/spindles on - widening the track. But that's real money. Here's a pic of the truck - you can see it sits low. With the rear axle flip it has 2.5" of travel...not enough. I intend to try to raise it a couple inches and swap the Foose rims with smoothies to complement the slightly raised ride height - if I can ever get the brakes working again. So off I go to fab a steering stop! Thanks for the help!
Thanks for the thread link - that's a great thread. I think you're spot on. It drives and handles OK (except for the brakes totally failing under full lock, which happens quickly...)
Couldn’t you take a nip out of the frame and weld a patch back in. That seems like it would be about the best easiest and without shortening the turning radius. Great looking truck
LOL I was going to suggest the same thing. ^^^^^ Loosing the Mustang II wouldn't hurt either. LOL Here is a tid bit for the useless information book. GM trucks after the use of independent came about will turn the front wheels so tight that you can scoot the front tires at lock. They have never seemed to cure that. I had a Johnny Cash C-10 that we mixed n matched suspension pieces from different years (mostly 62 and 65), using the '62 idlers on the '65 front end made it so that you could turn the front wheels so tight that you could actually break the beads (if they were not completely aired up). We used to turn it to lock in a slick(ish) parking lot and nail it and spin it right around on the front wheels. Well back to it bump stops would be the easiest and best solution.
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