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Technical Replace solid lifters?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Sailsman, Mar 31, 2019.

  1. Sailsman
    Joined: Jan 1, 2019
    Posts: 68

    Sailsman

    Hello, I pulled the heads off of my 1965 327 in order to clean out the coolant passages. It was a great success and now I am putting it all back together. Now I am deciding whether to replace the solid lifters or leave them as-is.

    The reason is, three of the lifters do not have their push rod seat retainers. My recollection is that the engine builder told me that they are not very important....that they are there mostly to keep the lifters together during assembly. The engine only had 43,000 miles on it and the lifters looked good otherwise. I think we might have considered replacing them, but can't remember. He had given the retainers to me, and yesterday I went to install them and discovered they are loose (too small) and won't stay in the lifters.

    The engine now has 1000 miles on the rebuild done 25 years ago, without any lifter trouble. However, when I looked in my recently acquired factory service manual, it makes the statement "If pushrod seat is loose in lifter body, the entire lifter should be replaced" (see attached).

    So, with that new information, can I be comfortable leaving them as is? Without the retainers, the affected push rod seats would be free to move up and down within the limits of the valve lash. If new retainers were available separately, I could push them into the lifters.

    If I need to replace them, should I replace the push rods as well? With new lifters, will I need to break-in the cam again?
     

    Attached Files:

  2. 19Fordy
    Joined: May 17, 2003
    Posts: 8,027

    19Fordy
    Member

    I am not an expert but. I bet you would be better off installing a complete
    cam/lifter/pushrod kit so that every component matches.
     
  3. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member Emeritus

    I would think, If it's not broke, don't fix it. I think your original engine builder should be trusted. You trusted him at the time.
     
    egads likes this.
  4. Sailsman
    Joined: Jan 1, 2019
    Posts: 68

    Sailsman

    Good point, and I have felt confident so far. As I try to imagine a failure mode without the retainers, I don't see the push rod seats escaping since they are held in place by the push rods. And it seems like any wear any wear caused by movement of the seats would be less than what occurs where the push rod hits the seat.
     

  5. 302GMC
    Joined: Dec 15, 2005
    Posts: 7,856

    302GMC
    Member
    from Idaho

    I'd be concerned about where the clips have gone. Recently tore down a 389 Pontiac that didn't make it out of initial fireup before locking up. The cause was a circlip from a lifter broke & found it's way into a main bearing.
     
    alanp561 likes this.
  6. Sailsman
    Joined: Jan 1, 2019
    Posts: 68

    Sailsman

    Excellent point. The engine builder gave them to me when I picked up the short block, so they are accounted for. Thanks.
     
    302GMC likes this.
  7. 1971BB427
    Joined: Mar 6, 2010
    Posts: 8,719

    1971BB427
    Member
    from Oregon

    I'm not certain what you mean by pushrod seat retainers on a solid lifter cam setup? Solid lifters don't have any clips. They're solid. Or are you referring to the guide plates on the heads?
     
  8. 427 sleeper
    Joined: Mar 8, 2017
    Posts: 2,872

    427 sleeper
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I don't think I'd be able to sleep at night KNOWING that the snap rings were missing on a few of my lifters. While in theory, it should be ok. But what happens when you piss-off Murphy and and all his Law's come raining down on you? For the price of a set of solid lifters for a small block, I'd replace them, just for cheap insurance. When is the next snap ring going to come out??? Just my thoughts and OCD talking...
     
  9. Some have clips..It's just variation of the machining process to make them in two pieces.
    See PDF posted above.
    That being said, it would bother me too . Pull a stud, break a rocker or pushrod ball off, and you'd have one more piece of junk flying around in there.
     
    427 sleeper likes this.
  10. slowmotion
    Joined: Nov 21, 2011
    Posts: 3,330

    slowmotion
    Member

    I'm a tight-ass, as a rule. But in this case I'd probably ante up for a new set. Piece of mind seems more logical the older I get...:confused:
     
    427 sleeper likes this.
  11. 41rodderz
    Joined: Sep 27, 2010
    Posts: 6,540

    41rodderz
    Member
    from Oregon

    Here is where you need to stop and take a deep breath. First take a few steps back to move forward with piece of mind. Not sure if you kept lifters , push rods and rocker arms in order. I would go pick a new cam, bearings and lifters and install them . For the cost , peace of mind do it right and be done with it. People spend more on tires and dodads.
     
    RDR, OahuEli, OLSKOOL57 and 3 others like this.
  12. Doublepumper
    Joined: Jun 26, 2016
    Posts: 1,535

    Doublepumper
    Member
    from WA-OR, USA

    I'd be concerned about the remaining retainers leaving. If those three are loose what are the rest like? They may or may not become a problem in the future. Replacing those lifters with new ones is a fairly good way to wipe off a lobe/s over time. Because Murphy and I have such a close relationship, I'd at least replace the cam, lifters and pushrods. Just my 2 cents worth.
     
    OLSKOOL57 and 41rodderz like this.
  13. seb fontana
    Joined: Sep 1, 2005
    Posts: 8,444

    seb fontana
    Member
    from ct

    Hnstray likes this.
  14. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member Emeritus

    If I really cared I would either do what Seb said. Or contact the manufacturer of the cam and lifters (if known) or Isky if not. And buy retainers. New am, bearings, lifters? What?
     
  15. Sailsman
    Joined: Jan 1, 2019
    Posts: 68

    Sailsman

    I do want to sleep at night and I tend to be conservative with these kinds of things. The thing that would give me comfort is that the retainers are not a snap ring, but more of a washer.....a thin, spring steel washer, .012 thick/7/16" id x 11"/16 od. In my attachment it looks like a "dish" near the top of the lifter and it pushes down inside the bore of the lifter, with a close fit and (theoretically) can't back out. When my engine builder found them in my engine, they had left the lifters and were held in place around the push rods. so they can't really take off.

    So I really have two situations.....will the three lifters without retainers work fine without them, as my engine builder said, and as the three missing ones have for 1000 miles. And will another one (or more) slip out of the lifters and stay around their push rods in the future. There would be no way to know without pulling the intake manifold for a look.
     
  16. 427 sleeper
    Joined: Mar 8, 2017
    Posts: 2,872

    427 sleeper
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    You might also run into "running" valve lash issues. With no retainers on the pushrod cup, what is going to keep the seats in place with oil pressure applied? There goes the .030" lash. Too many more with the same problem, you might as well have a hydraulic lifter cam. Just seeing some performance and drivability issues in the future. Or am I just over thinking Again?
     
  17. Sailsman
    Joined: Jan 1, 2019
    Posts: 68

    Sailsman

    I looked at McMaster Carr and they have some spring steel shims, but I don't see the exact size I would need. I should mention that my engine is the 365 hp 327 with 30-30 cam and everything in it is still stock and original. The cam was built up and reground when the engine was rebuilt. I am not sure if a new cam like that is available now?
     
  18. 6sally6
    Joined: Feb 16, 2014
    Posts: 2,459

    6sally6
    Member

    IF you have the $$$ & the time...never pass up an opportunity to swap in a bigger cam and lifters!
    No kidd'in....for the money the peace-of-mind costs I'd replace some stuff.
    6sally6
     
  19. 427 sleeper
    Joined: Mar 8, 2017
    Posts: 2,872

    427 sleeper
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Isky so202h are an excellent lifter IMHO. Under $200, with extra oiling at the cam lobe.
     
    OLSKOOL57 likes this.
  20. Sailsman
    Joined: Jan 1, 2019
    Posts: 68

    Sailsman

    My imagination tells me that when the valve closes, and the push rod is "floating", the pushrod cup may also float up with it (a maximum of .030"), then push back down when the cam lobe comes around. I'm still learning how this all works.
     
  21. DDDenny
    Joined: Feb 6, 2015
    Posts: 19,144

    DDDenny
    Member
    from oregon

    Lifters are cheap, but go ahead you could get lucky, it just seems like a good way to ruin a weekend, not to mention the cost of other potential damage.
    Like others have said; why give yourself something to always be wondering when trouble might arise.
     
    OLSKOOL57 and 427 sleeper like this.
  22. chargin03
    Joined: Jan 8, 2013
    Posts: 516

    chargin03
    Member

    Do you feel lucky ?
     
    OLSKOOL57 and 427 sleeper like this.
  23. 427 sleeper
    Joined: Mar 8, 2017
    Posts: 2,872

    427 sleeper
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    THAT'S the thing... a 1.5 rocker ratio (usually less with stock stamped rockers) is not enough mechanical advantage to overcome 50 psi or more of hydraulic pressure. That's why the seat needs to be solidly fixed. Aside from that, if GM thought they could save a buck by not using the retainers, they wouldn't have put them on in the first place.
     
    Bearcat_V8 likes this.
  24. Sailsman
    Joined: Jan 1, 2019
    Posts: 68

    Sailsman

    My little brain is having a hard time sorting this all out. The (reputable) engine builder turned the engine over to me knowing the retainers were not in the three lifters and said they were really not needed. I have now, 25 years later, just broken the engine in and it has 1000 miles on it. It's just hard to accept that it needs to be redone. Maybe I should try to contact him again and see what he has to say.
     
  25. Sailsman
    Joined: Jan 1, 2019
    Posts: 68

    Sailsman

    I agree, lifters are cheap, and push rods if necessary. If I install new lifters, would I also need to replace my practically new cam?
     
  26. 427 sleeper
    Joined: Mar 8, 2017
    Posts: 2,872

    427 sleeper
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    It doesn't need to be redone, it just needs new lifters. Honestly, if a reputable engine builder returned my engine to me like that, with parts missing parts, I would be questioning his reputablity. But that's just me.
     
    Poh likes this.
  27. Tickety Boo
    Joined: Feb 2, 2015
    Posts: 1,610

    Tickety Boo
    Member
    from Wisconsin

    Like Mark said, some thing lets go or you bend a push rod is he going to build you a new engine, after you have all ready had it 25 years? You may have had 1000 lucky miles, do you ever wind it up past 6000 rpm?
     
    427 sleeper likes this.
  28. Sailsman
    Joined: Jan 1, 2019
    Posts: 68

    Sailsman

    I was hoping you would say that......about just needing new lifters. Others are saying a new cam as well, so I guess there are different philosophies. I am agreeing with you that my engine builder may not be all that reputable. I did a quick Google and see he is still in business.
     
  29. 427 sleeper
    Joined: Mar 8, 2017
    Posts: 2,872

    427 sleeper
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    New lifters on old cam = ok. Old lifters on new cam = MISERY!
     
    slowmotion, Bearcat_V8 and OLSKOOL57 like this.
  30. The lifters already have a successful wear pattern to the cam, so I'd leave them in. BUT, I would get 3 new or used clips/retainers, even if you have to buy new lifters just for the clips, because if you ever break a rocker arm, the inside of the lifter will come out and A, you'll have to pull the intake to replace, and B, the parts will end up where you don't want them!!!!
     
    Johnny Gee likes this.

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