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Technical Starter relay necessary ?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Jesse Brody, Feb 3, 2019.

  1. Jesse Brody
    Joined: May 25, 2018
    Posts: 28

    Jesse Brody
    Member
    from Miami Fl

    Noob question here... Trying to clean up my firewall... Is this relay necessary? I thought the solenoid on the GM type starter had a built-in relay. [​IMG]


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  2. rockable
    Joined: Dec 21, 2009
    Posts: 4,429

    rockable
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Are you sure that is a relay? That has high current wiring going to it. It is either some sort of breaker or high current relay to something other than the starter. Take the cover off and shoot another picture. Where does that large red wire on top go?
     
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  3. Bandit Billy
    Joined: Sep 16, 2014
    Posts: 12,286

    Bandit Billy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    The top one looks like a 100 amp fuse holder. The lower one is a ford style starter solenoid. Chevy starters do have solenoids attached but the ford style are often added to help with hot starts.
     
  4. He is talking about the Ford starter relay under the part you asked about.
     
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  5. jimmy six
    Joined: Mar 21, 2006
    Posts: 14,801

    jimmy six
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Not necessary but I would relocate on the passenger foot angle and possibly attach a cover to the rolled lip as to not see it. That would clean it up with still a few holes to fill. There are press in caps usually made of stainless of many diameters which would do this. good luck
     
  6. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member Emeritus

    What is the top thing with the red cable in and out? Do you have trailer brakes and lights plugged into that? Hydraulics?
     
  7. olscrounger
    Joined: Feb 23, 2008
    Posts: 4,770

    olscrounger
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    looks like maxi fuse -maybe going to panel? See purple wire off of solenoid so probably Ford relay to starter feed.
     
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  8. nugget32
    Joined: Aug 21, 2011
    Posts: 260

    nugget32

    A high amp fuse

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  9. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member Emeritus

    Good. A high amp fuse to what? Looks something like the fuse inline to my trailer. Is he using it? Is that what he wants to lose along with the solenoid?
     
  10. Jesse Brody
    Joined: May 25, 2018
    Posts: 28

    Jesse Brody
    Member
    from Miami Fl

    It is a Ford starter relay... I believe it’s a 60 or 90 fuse.... If I remove it why would I have trouble starting the truck? Only thing I can think of is someone wanted easier access to jump the starter manually if they had to...?


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  11. Roger O'Dell
    Joined: Jan 21, 2008
    Posts: 1,150

    Roger O'Dell
    Member

    I use a relay that looks like a ford starter relay, BUT ISN’T ,it’s a continuous duty relay , used to isolate the battery
     
  12. 2OLD2FAST
    Joined: Feb 3, 2010
    Posts: 5,217

    2OLD2FAST
    Member
    from illinois

    I've seen a " hot start kit " advertised for Chevy starting problems ( although I've never understood how they work ) thus could be one of those ???
     
  13. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member Emeritus

    I put a Ford starter relay om my SBC powered Lark because I thought the Chevy starter relay was getting to hot and causing hard start problems. Seemed to work. But that did not have that "Fuse" shown above the relay and I would have had no use for a cable off the hot side going to a fuse and then to?. What is at the other end of that red cable?
     
  14. Johnny Gee
    Joined: Dec 3, 2009
    Posts: 12,602

    Johnny Gee
    Member
    from Downey, Ca

    High amp fuse can be relocated. It's possible that's your primary feed (12V Pos.) or for some sort of audio system. As for the Ford solenoid below the fuse. Up grade the light blue start wire to 12 gauge from ignition switch (and safety neutral switch if you have one) to Chevy starter. You'll also have to remove a strap that is currently on your starter that bridges battery cable terminal and "S" terminal on the Chevy starter solenoid and place new 12 gauge start wire to "S" terminal.
     
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  15. egads
    Joined: Aug 23, 2011
    Posts: 1,419

    egads
    Member

    Looks like the maxi-fuse probably feeds power to the rest of the car , same thing as a fusible link except easier to replace if it blows.
     
  16. You circled a maxi fuse holder and a ford style solenoid. I use a maxi fuse in my model a to supply my fuse panel and the chevy style solenoid likely has a jumper wire from the large post to the small sart terminal. When you hit the key switch the ford solenoid sends juice to the starter and engages the chevy solenoid and motor windings at the same time. Pretty much guaranteed that you have some rewiring to do and if you're new at this type of thing then there's a good chance your car is looking at some down time. If it ain't broke don't fix it.
     
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  17. Vimtage Iron
    Joined: Feb 28, 2010
    Posts: 561

    Vimtage Iron
    Member

    I'm a little stumped here, the ford solenoid looks like it has battery sized cable going in and out, now if that out cable goes to the GM starter solenoid to give it the 12 volts I don't see how that would help, normally the batt cable goes to the stater anyway so what good is adding more connections in between.
     
  18. 6sally6
    Joined: Feb 16, 2014
    Posts: 2,459

    6sally6
    Member

    The hot start kit you mentioned is basically a toggle switch that cuts power to the coil. You hit the start button(or key) and the engine spins over easier with the power to the coil interrupted. Once the engine is spinning...flip the toggle to the coil ON and the engine will fire off! Works pretty good with a hot engine running a load of compression.
    Works good when setting points or "bumping" it to TDC.
    6sally6
     
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  19. Johnny Gee
    Joined: Dec 3, 2009
    Posts: 12,602

    Johnny Gee
    Member
    from Downey, Ca

    This is placed onto Chevy starter as a jumper.
    [​IMG]
     
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  20. The Ford solenoid is used for GM motors with headers....hot starter crank problems. If you want to clean up the firewall then run the wiring on the frame to a '95 and newer Chevy starter and eliminate the need for the solenoid. Hide the high amp fuse holder and paint the Lokar trans dipstick black.

    The newer starter is a permanent magnet, almost no heat problems, A LOT lighter and almost the same price. You must get shorter starter bolts.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2019
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  21. I run a similar set up with a 50 amp maxi fuse.
     

    Attached Files:

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  22. cederholm
    Joined: May 6, 2006
    Posts: 1,748

    cederholm
    Member

    If it works and you're only trying to clean things, I would learn what you hav exactly and why it's being used before messing with it. If you didn't do it, it was either put there to fix something or for someone who doesn't know that they were doing. Either way you need to figure out what you have any why.

    More photos to these guys might help.
     
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  23. proartguy
    Joined: Apr 13, 2009
    Posts: 658

    proartguy
    Member
    from Sparks, NV

    The fuse looks like it may be the main power to lights, ignition, etc.

    The chevy V8 starters had solenoids that would not work well when they got hot. By using a Ford type solenoid system it solves the problem. I have had one of those set-ups for over 20 years and it solved the problem. Mounted under the toe board so it is not too visible.
     
  24. deucemac
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 1,483

    deucemac
    Member

    I worked for the Border Patrol in El Centro in the mid '70's. We had terrible starting problems with the 454 Suburban when they at and got hot after driving anything more than 15 miles loaded. We tried all the known tricks to no avail. Finally, I called GM in Burbank to get their ideas. I talked to the engineer on the phone and he told me to install a Ford starter relay, use a starter cable from the relay to the starter solenoid on the stock starter, add a jumper wire from the large pole on the solenoid to the S terminal on the solenoid. Take all of the wires from the solenoid and attach them to the battery post on the Ford relay, except for the starter wire that attached to the S terminal on the relay. I asked him did he realize that he just told me to put a Ford part on a GM vehicle? His reply was simple and short. "Do you want it to start or not?", so I did what he said. He explained that with all the wires on the solenoid, eddy current would cause the solenoid plunger to swell in the housing and bind, causing the grunt we all have heard. By removing the wiring, no eddy current build up and no plunger swelling. We did what he said on our fleet of Suburbans and the problem disappeared completely ! Since that time, I have done that trick to any GM product I have owned and many friends cars especially with headers. Some had every fancy starter and cable setup without success. All of them got cured by using the suggestion from that GM engineer in Burbank many years ago. I have a 68 El Camino that my father bought originally April 4th 1968. We replaced the flat cammer 307 with a 350 and Hooked headers at 85,000 miles. Now 500,000 miles, three engines later and having driven it in temps as high as 115 degrees, it has never refused to start or gotten the grunts. I didn't fully grasp what the engineer was explaining at the time, but ewho cares. It has worked for me and everyone else that took my advice. I still find it funny that a GM engineer recommended using a Ford relay. What next? Fiat parts on a Chrysler? Oh wait a minute, I think that's been done.
     
  25. Johnny Gee
    Joined: Dec 3, 2009
    Posts: 12,602

    Johnny Gee
    Member
    from Downey, Ca

    Eddy Current, Yeti, Big Foot. Never seen one. Just up grade "S" terminal wire to a larger gauge as GM finally did in later years so that proper voltage (and amps) will make it to the coil in the solenoid as should be.
     
  26. Vimtage Iron
    Joined: Feb 28, 2010
    Posts: 561

    Vimtage Iron
    Member

    Now I understand thanks to deucemac, I've not encountered that problem and I have an OT Chev with headers but I put a high torque on it and its not given any fits.
    Johnny, same problem on the older Cummins powered trucks sometimes the starter solenoid would just click several times and no action we'd install the Ford solenoid but use it with 10 ga wire to go to the S terminal hitting it with proper voltage.
     
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  27. Heavy Old Steel
    Joined: Feb 1, 2019
    Posts: 96

    Heavy Old Steel
    Member

    While your cleaning things up, don't forget that 8mm spark plug wire that looks to be about 3mm from that header tube.
     
  28. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 33,861

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I've got that same setup on both of my OT trucks. 71 GMC and 77 Dualie 454 for the exact problem Deuce mac mentioned in post 24. When the Delco solenoid gets hot there is a good chance it doesn't want to kick in . With the Ford solenoid you are pretty sure that it will kick in. The dualie's starter was giving me fits before I did that mod. I use a battery cable terminal to go from the batt post to the S post on the Delco Solenoid. Flatten the end, drill a hole in the right spot and round off the corners a bit and put on and run the S wire to the ford Solenoid.
    I'd say you are a damned fool if the only reason you want to take the Ford Solenoid off is to "clean up the engine compartment" It's a hot rod not a street rod, we have wires and cables running in hot rod engine compartments. The unit was most likely installed after the previous owner got stuck somewhere due to a hot start issue and that is usually right after filling the tank on a road trip with your buddies while running at good road speed for what ever a full tank takes you down the highway. That 77 of mine would decide not to start at gas pumps all too often. That meant an hour or more wait until it cooled off and would start.

    Clean firewall or not having to wait for the engine to cool off to get it to crank on your next road trip, your choice.
     
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  29. Johnny Gee
    Joined: Dec 3, 2009
    Posts: 12,602

    Johnny Gee
    Member
    from Downey, Ca

    I'll ask this then. How does a hot starter that wouldn't start before but was only wired differently to accept 12 volts via a relay suddenly take the heat? It's still the same starter after all. It's not the Ford relay that's helping matter's. It's this strap that makes it happen.
    [​IMG]
    However that strap cannot work alone. If it were installed alone what would break the circuit then? Rather than calling it a Ford "starter" relay, call it a "stop" relay.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
  30. Engine man
    Joined: Jan 30, 2011
    Posts: 3,480

    Engine man
    Member
    from Wisconsin

    Does that strap connect the battery terminal to the terminal that goes into the starter or just from the battery terminal to the S terminal?

    I've used a Ford solenoid and removed the battery cable from the GM solenoid and connected it to the Ford solenoid. Then run a cable from the other side of the Ford solenoid to the GM Solenoid battery terminal. I make a thick copper strip to connect the battery terminal on the GM solenoid to the terminal that connects to the starter. I make a jumper wire to go from the GM solenoid S terminal to the Ford solenoid S terminal. This provides an extra path for current to flow. The GM style solenoids were once made with a solid copper contact disc that made the connection between the terminals. They were changed to copper plated so they won't handle as much current and arc a lot more. On the old ones, the cover could be removed and the plate turned over as it was screwed on. When they changed to the plated contact disc, they started staking them on.

    [​IMG]
     
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