4L80E + Pontiac 455 = ??????

Help!

I was talking with a guy in Calli-forn-i-a the other day about gear ratios, trans ratios and rear tire diameter and we got on the subject of overdrive transmissions. See I'm building a Pontiac (and as every Pontiac owner knows, it just don't run right with anythin but an indian between the rails) and I told him I would be using a TH400 mainly because I've got 2 and I hate shifting in traffic. He made it sound as if there was an easy (ha-ha!) way to trade out my TH400 with a 4L80E. He left me with the understanding that I'd have to install a computer to control the modulation, use an electronic speedo or find someone like Art Car who makes some type of conversion for mechanical speedos and drill out the bell housing so it would mate to my BOP pattern. Any ideas on this one? It'd be sweet if I could us a OD for those long trips. Sound off if youv'e got any ideas!

 

Hey..
I'm run'n a 455 in a 31 coupe with a T-400.. Been on the road for 26 years, Beat the snot out of it! Never had tranny issues..
OK.. snoop'd around about od trannys for the "Indian" from what I gathered you'd best have a good rebuild by a good tranny guy.. Put in the best of everything as the low end of the Poncho will do a number unless built right.
From what I gather big $$$.. Thats when I gave up and desided to stick with the t-400..
www.badlandscoupe.com

Pontiac Slim

 

they make an adapter plate that mates a bop to a chevy, and vice versa.
computer stuff is easy enough-Jet makes a stand alone that is pretty trick,small, and allows for full power upshifts (which usually kills the 4l80 and 4l60) and, I might be crazy, but I have seen a manual drive tailshaft assy from someone like Performance Transmission (good folks- I have one of thier "bionic 80's " in a crate about 10 feet from me right now...) if not, the electric to mechanical boxes are pretty cool anyway- they let you figure in rear tire size and gear ratio so the damned speedo reads right.

it really is pretty easy to pull off. (well, easier than getting the headers on a ram air iv in a g.t.o.-how's that grab ya...)

personally though, I'm going with a really cool deal from Wayne's transmission- an overdrive muncie m22.
no crap! geared like a 700 4R, and all the brutality you can hurl at it...for about 1/3 the price of a 4l80E
I wouldn't beleive it if I hadn't seen it with my own 2 eyes.

 

Years ago I read an article in either Hot Rod or Car Craft about rebuilding muncies. Tey mentioned somoething about an overdrive M22. I think it was the M22Y.

 

I've got an M-22 in my 57 Safari(also got a 4.56 posi in there too)and I would DEFINITELY be interested in an OD conversion for it.Do you have a contact number for Wayne's Transmissions?

As for the header problem:I don't know if this would work on the GTO but my Safari has a set of custom made headers(done in 1966 and they're still good!)that uses a slip joint on the left rear pipe coming out of the head.It is designed so that the wider part is on the rear section.It has no clamp and there is no exhaust leak.When unbolting,take that pipe off first and the headers just about fall out.

 

The M22 overdrive is from Auto Gear Equipment... .86 ratio 4th.

http://www.autogear.net/m22ratios.htm

 

I have a th350 and a quick change behind my Pontiac. LOVE it. Run a 3.89 around town and short trips then a 2.99 for loooong trips.

You can adapt a th700 pretty easily, but they take a bit of work to handle large torque situations.

Or, you can go with your th400 and an over/under drive from Gear Vendors.

Either way, it looks like to make it bullet proof, you are gonna spend 2500 bucks...

The only cheap way to do it is to find an early 80s Pontiac Grand Prix with a 200R. They are already Pontiac bolt pattern, but take a fair ammount of love to hold up to a real Pontiac motor.

What is your project? Daily driver or street strip?

Good luck, -Abone.

 

I believe chevrolet performance parts has a stand alone computer to run the 4l80e for a bit over $1000 and TCI makes a similar setup for about the same $. I'm at a loss for the bell housing bolt-up adapter.

I have a 4l60e in my LT1 DD and if I had my choice.... for similar cash... I'd put a gear vendors behind a th400 and have a bullet proof trans, an overdrive and have 4.11's.


s.

 

i thought all 200 4r's were dual pattern bellhousing.

 

What is your project? Daily driver or street strip?



Its a '31 coupe. I kept the 350 and th400 out of the bird I sold to buy this one. Then picked up a 455 out of a '71 goat. This is turning a '64 Pontiac posi 2.87. The idea is to build a weekender, fun for casual Fridays, smoke the rice wagons on the weekends, and drive to the carshows and cruise ins. More highway than track, thats why I'm looking for tranny options. As I see it now with the 2.87, th400 @ 65mph 2100rpm I'd need 29-30" rear tires. I'd like to get that down a little. Pictures attached are from when I brought the car home. It's stripped down now.


"The only cheap way to do it is to find an early 80s Pontiac Grand Prix with a 200R. They are already Pontiac bolt pattern, but take a fair ammount of love to hold up to a real Pontiac motor."

That's what I'm afraid of. I don't think a 200 will stand up the strain of all that torque. I'd be better off running the TH400.

 

A 200R4 is not a 700R4, and vice versa. The 700R4, which became the 4L60/4L60E, (E means electronic control) is like a TH350 with an overdrive 4th added, the 200R4 is like a TH200 beefed a little with an OD gear. 4L80E is a TH400 with the OD added and electronic control.

The 200R4 can be built to take the torque of a 455 and I think both it and the early 700R4 just need a $40 lockup switch kit to run in a non-computer car. Seems way easier to me than a lot of electronic nonsense for the 4L80E, unless you're into that sort of tech for a car. But if you dig that, why not put some kind of EFI on to go with it?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm a firm believer in Murphy's law. If it's electronic, I'll find a way to F%#K it up. I'm just thinking of durability, and what I've heard the 4L80E is built like a tank. Believe me, if I could find away to put an Allison tranny in this car, I would.

 

The 200 r4 came factory installed in a grand national, Those turbo sixes are badass and so is the tranny. I wish some one would give me one of those.

 

The 200s have been built to live behind some of the hotter Turbo Buicks. They can be done plenty tough to live behind a street 455. Linkage shift, no electronics required to run it. Typical speedo cable hookup.

However- the 4L80-E is a good route. Its extra beefy, especially in modified form. The electronic speedos are now available from all the major gauge mfrs. Some (like Classic Instruments and AutoMeter) are offering electronic speedos in their regular product lines to nail the look and style you're after. As was mentioned, several companies are offering aftermarket programmable computers to control the 4L60/4L80s and they can be fine-tuned for the car via laptop, which is easy and kind of fun to do. You program your own transmission for shift point, line pressure (firmness), etc. Pretty cool.


Alternatively, GPS speedos (no hookups required to anything but power) are also available (Nordskog has a nice one.) Styles are kinda limited though.

I'll be running a beefed-up 4L80-E behind my 740-horse Pontiac, so I've researched it enough to have confidence in it. Mine will be from TCI, as will the converter and controller. This way I know it's all engineered to work as a system, plus TCI has promised me their 4L80 is tough enough to deal with my Poncho.

I'm running an aftermarket Pontiac block (Indian Adventures) which is double-drilled for B-O-P and Chevy transmissions, so I won't need an adapter. You can get the B-O-P to Chevy pattern adapters from several sources.

Here's one:
http://www.transmissionadapters.com/late_bpoc.htm

~Scotch~

 

Ya know, thats what I like about this site. You ask a question, you get immediate response from guys who've been there, done that. You can't buy this type of research. And for a guy like me who has to keep his brain from leaking out of all the holes in his head all over his shirt, it's that much better.

It'll be a while before I get around to buying a tranny, infact my wife says I've got two speeds.....stop and sleep. Thanks for the advice guys! If anyone else has a comment, don't be shy. I'll be checking back!

 

gawd damn , that stuff must be a typo or what eggzackly is meant?


the 700 trans did NOT become the 4L80E. The 700 is nothing like a t-400 internally

The 200-4r is NOT like a t-350 internally

 

I yanked out the engine and trans from a 87 Caprice it has the 200 R and it is a bastard case so it will bolt up to the BOP.I've seen add claiming to be able to handle 600hp from the 200R so it can be done.don't know what it would cost to get one souped up to handle the 600 hp but it would be cool to have 342 or 373 gears and still be able to do 100+ mph burst from time to time without the high RPM's

 

My 71 Lemans runs a 455 with 200-4R. and 3.55 gearset. Works fine, very efficient. The trans is out of a 87 GN, and had it rebuilt 7 years ago for $1100. lockup is easy- I only use it in OD, and have a brake switch to turn it off- no electronic crap.

If you are really going to beat on this, get a 400 and a good Hughes or Continental convertor, with 3.08 gears.

 

So, just so I know I'm getting this right, in order for me to use an OD with my Indian I'll have to do one of the following. Find a BOP 200R4 and build it to handle the torque. No computer needed but how does it kick down/overdrive, by cable, vacuum, or electonic? Use a over/under drive with my TH400. Thats about $2500. Or find a 4L80E, buy a stand alone computer, harness, adapter plate and have somewhere between $3000-$5000 when all's said and done. Right so far?


Is a 700R4 an option? And what years 200 & 700 should I stay away from. I had a 700 in an old pickup and it wasn't worth @$#%!

 

www.phoenixtransmissionproducts.com www.compushift.com

 

these are my experiences...not trying to ruffle feathers...

the 200 is great for a high output turbo 6-and will do "okay" when heavily modified, but will not live a long and happy life behind a poncho- the power hits damn hard from a pontiac.

700- I would climb over a pile of running ones for a 4l80 with a busted ear that needs a rebuild.

gear vendor- don't like electronics? not for you. they also vibrate until you get the bugs figured out, which is a pain in the ass. -I would have liked the wiring ALOT better if I could have soldered and heat shrunk all the connections- but they use pre cut set ups with TELEPHONE JACKS as a connection- not the best for a street car. I have installed several and am never very happy with the fit and finish of the completed build. there is also the delay...it's minute, but when you are trying to make a really picky customer happy, there is really no way to improve it.

4l80e...good stuff! especially if you pony up and get a built one. one of my customers drives like a psycho ( with a 4l60) all the time. Nascar guys don't abuse stuff like this cat does. he will go through one about every 2 years in a 5500 pound car- and I cannot stress the "abuse" part enough. brutal!

previously, he would go through 700's about twice a year-built ones!

it's your easy way out...if you want it to last.

 

the one i threw away out of my 86 ss wasn't, IIRC, that was high school though

 

I have built a few TH200-4R's. Stock internals will handle about 500ft-lbs torque if its built right with good clutches and steels, billet apply piston, servo, and a good shift kit. You really have to make sure you have the line pressure set right on these, and the kickdown set right. A TH200-4R is actually stronger than a TH700-4R because of its input shaft design. Any more than about 500 ft-lbs and you start needing hardend shafts and billet drums to live. At this level I would go for a TH400 and less rear gear since the car will have the torque to get up and move anyways. I have never played with a 4L80E, so I will defer to those that have.

Considering its not hard for a 455 to make 500ft-lbs in mildly modified form. I think the TH400 is the way to go with a set of highway gears. Pontiacs are perfectly happy with a 3.08-3.73 gear because they make so much torque.

 

you can buy an adaptor plate to run the 700R with the BOP.If you go with a 200R I have one sitting in my garage in Cold Springs if you want to stop by for a look.can't remember if it uses a tv cable for the kick down or what.no computer for the 200R for sure.and I think you can rig up the lock up converter with a switch to get more holding power in OD.you are more than welcome to take a look at it.measure size and where the mount will go if you want to.

 

the 200 & 700 trannys use a TV cable. The throttle valve cable controls internal pressure rise and shift points. It MUST be hooked up correctly at the carb / EFI!

Kits are availbile to hook the 200 / 700 lock up of the converter clutch in OD only.

T-400 & over drive on the back is another way.

Cost on a 4L80E is about right when all said and done.

1988 to 1992 on the 700 are good years to use.

200-4r later years are better. You can build about any of them for some power.

4L80E... 1996 or newer are the better units to build. Cooler line location gives this away. Both cooler line fittings near bell housing= early.... one cooler line fitting near the rear of the main case = updated unit

 

can u tell me how to wire a 200 trans to use the overdrive internally and how to hook up the wiring externally
Thanks Ray

 

Didn't some of the mid 90's non-computer diesel pickups use a 4L80E? If so maybe you could do the electronics with junkyard parts by getting that controller.

 

Dad and I have built nothing but Pontiac's for years, just stick a 3.08 behind the T400 and drive the crap out of it, the 455 will pull it just fine. Dad's drag wagon weighs 4200 lbs, 462 ci Pontiac, T400 trans, 3.31 gears, 28" tall tires, it would run 11.40's@ 116-118 mph all day long!

If you could ever hook the tires to the ground, I would worry about torque blowing the trans up, but if you never run drag tires on a sticky track, about any trans will live as long as the tires spin. You could run a 2.56 gear and still be able whip up on rice burners!
Joe

 

• raybhotrod, easiest way is to buy a conveter lock up kit. Lots of vendors sell them. My 60 Pontiac with a 2004R from a Grand National works great. The on-off switch is a floor mounted dimmer switch and a 10 second time delay and a dash mounted indicator light that tells you when the converter is locked up. Real nice running at 1800 RPM at 75 MPH.

Gary

 

Gary did u buy it from Bowler performance or what other co. makes it
Thanks and Merry xmas Ray