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Projects An Amateur Chops a Brookville Coupe & More

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Bcap55, Nov 26, 2018.

  1. Bcap55
    Joined: Oct 5, 2009
    Posts: 301

    Bcap55
    Member
    from PA, USA

    I'll be showing photos in an upcoming post on how a relief cut was filled. The cut at the front of the door had a layer of metal under the outer skin that spanned the gap, so I just welded over this a little at a time with the mig welder to fill in the gap. That was a mistake. With that much weld metal in a narrow space, there was a lot of shrinkage in the surrounding metal. I wound up with a low spot that couldn't be removed because there was no way to access this from inside.
     
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  2. Bcap55
    Joined: Oct 5, 2009
    Posts: 301

    Bcap55
    Member
    from PA, USA

    I never thought of doing it that way, I always thought that the top got chopped first. The Waldon videos were not available when I did the chop, but if they were I would have chopped the doors first. I would never doubt any advice from Bobby Waldon. Still doesn't make perfect sense to me why it's better, but I still would have tried it that way.
     
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  3. Bcap55
    Joined: Oct 5, 2009
    Posts: 301

    Bcap55
    Member
    from PA, USA

    I'll try to post photos of the roof fill tomorrow, stay tuned.
    Thanks for looking.
     
    loudbang likes this.
  4. Cliff Ramsdell
    Joined: Dec 27, 2004
    Posts: 1,343

    Cliff Ramsdell
    Member

    Wow, amazing job. And I was nervous chopping a 28 Tudor body and here you are chopping up a body that cost 10 times that.

    Hats off to you my friend. Well thought out and researched and the end result no doubt reflects to time and patience put into the job.

    Looks great, awaiting the finished car.

    Cliff Ramsdell
     
    loudbang likes this.
  5. Bcap55
    Joined: Oct 5, 2009
    Posts: 301

    Bcap55
    Member
    from PA, USA

    I really like the look of a filled top on a chopped coupe, so that big hole had to go. Thank goodness Waldon Speed Shop sells a preformed insert to do this. I don't know how I would have done this without it. Roaming salvage yards for a suitable donor top was not something I wanted to do. Somewhere on Waldon's website or the vastness of the internet is a nine page tutorial by Bobby Waldon on how to fill a top. Lot's of photos and info there, well worth searching for it. I printed out a copy of it and used that as my guide.
    First I marked center lines on the insert piece and also mark the centers on all sides of the roof opening. I used these to position the insert on the roof. I outlined the outside of the roof opening with Dykem layout fluid, this will help me see the scribe lines for cutting better. With the insert centered on the roof, I drilled a 1/8" hole about 1/2" in from the edge of the insert through the insert and the original top. I placed a cleco fastener thru the hole. I did this at three places on each side. With the insert secured to the roof,I removed one cleco at a time and and put a metal tab with two 1/8" holes in place with the cleco. I drilled the second hole thru the original roof and put another cleco thru it. This was done at all the other fastener locations. I marked each tab and its location on the roof so that they could be placed back in the same place later.
    This gives you an idea on what was done.
    IMG_20171002_181233821.jpg IMG_20171002_181249770.jpg
    Now the outline of the insert can be scribed onto the roof. This was the final cut line. Now with a cutoff wheel I made an initial cut 1/4" inside of this line all around the opening. I used a pair of tin snips to make the final cut along the scribed line being careful to not go outside of it. Here is where the tabs really help. You can put the insert in the opening while test fitting without it falling thru the hole. Once I had the piece fitting the way I wanted, all the clecos were installed and I started tacking it in. Check the insert alignment after each tack to make sure it doesn't move. You have to hammer and dolly each tack as you go to counter the effects of weld shrinkage.. Once the piece was locked in with several tacks on each side. I started at the center of the back roof and continued tacking the piece towards the front alternating from side to side.
    IMG_20171015_163735986.jpg IMG_20171015_163617926.jpg
    I used lot's of tacks to keep the insert in perfect alignment while doing the final welding.
    Here are views showing how well the insert fit.
    IMG_20171015_163533000.jpg IMG_20171015_163547253.jpg IMG_20171015_163639830.jpg
    The tack welds were ground almost flush. Again starting at the back, I used my tig welder and .045 diameter filler rod to keep the weld bead as small as possible and alternating side to side continued all the way around to the front.
    I don't have any pics of the finish weld, so here are photos of the finished roof.
    IMGP0397.JPG IMGP0399.JPG IMGP0414.JPG IMGP0412.JPG
    Getting this piece in was a huge relief for me. I was really worried that I might have to deal with massive sheet metal distortion from the welds. Thanks to Waldons excellent piece and taking the time to get a close fit around the seam, along with keeping the weld as small as possible distortion was surprisingly minimal. The hand held planishing hammer made quick work of stretching the weld zone and bringing the panels in line.
    I'm real happy with the end result. Better than I expected.
     
  6. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 20,406

    alchemy
    Member

    That's Walden, not Waldon. Nice job on the project. Welding big low crown areas gives me nightmares.
     
  7. Flop
    Joined: Jun 8, 2006
    Posts: 3,886

    Flop
    Member

    Nice work ! Filling the top sucks ! But a hand held planishing hammer was my life saver


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
    -Brent-, clem, brEad and 3 others like this.
  8. B.A.KING
    Joined: Apr 6, 2005
    Posts: 4,039

    B.A.KING
    Member

    THATS EXACTLY WHAT I WAS THINKING. Thats good work brother!!!!!!!!
     
  9. Flop
    Joined: Jun 8, 2006
    Posts: 3,886

    Flop
    Member

    Gotgas, clem, brEad and 6 others like this.
  10. Bcap55
    Joined: Oct 5, 2009
    Posts: 301

    Bcap55
    Member
    from PA, USA

    I like the way my roof turned out, it looks good. But not that good WOW. You make it look like the entire roof is made from a one piece stamping. I'll never figure out how you make the weld seam invisible. You are the best.
    Thanks Flop.
     
    brEad, Surf City, mgtstumpy and 6 others like this.
  11. RustyDogg
    Joined: Oct 8, 2014
    Posts: 170

    RustyDogg
    Member

    That's insane. ∆
     
    loudbang likes this.
  12. Bcap55
    Joined: Oct 5, 2009
    Posts: 301

    Bcap55
    Member
    from PA, USA

    At the beginning of this project, I removed the outer metal skin on the A pillars to get to the inner structure for cutting and welding. I expected these pieces to be hard to reinstall, there are a lot of body lines in a small area to line up. Here they are tacked in place.
    IMGP0335.JPG IMGP0333.JPG IMGP0337.JPG IMGP0338.JPG
    Well I was wrong. Even with 2 1/2" cut out of these pieces, the body lines look good. You can see that I didn't get the tight gaps like I normally try for. The shape and position of the pieces made it hard to predict where to file or grind to make them fit back in place. The bigger gaps were actually an advantage here. When you start tacking tight fitting pieces together, the weld shrinkage closes the gaps up tight and locks the pieces together. I tacked these pieces from the middle out towards the edges. The bigger gaps let me move the metal to line up all the creases.
    Here are some pics of the relief cuts needed to fix some misalignment. Not much was needed.
    Drivers side:
    IMGP0331.JPG IMGP0328.JPG
    Passenger side:
    IMGP0325.JPG
    Here are the finished A pillars.
    IMG_20181206_181902356.jpg IMG_20181206_181915778.jpg IMG_20181206_181923121.jpg
    IMG_20181206_181803121.jpg IMG_20181206_181816282.jpg IMG_20181206_181826842.jpg
    The drivers side turned out better than the passenger side. The passenger side will need more body filler work at the weld seams. I'm happy with the results, after filler and primer you won't be able to tell where they were welded.
    Getting close to wrapping this up. Next up I'll be showing how the window garnish pieces were chopped.
    Then I'll be going back to the sail panel area and lining up some body reveal lines that need to be addressed.
    Stay tuned.
    Thanks for looking.
     
    willysguy, The 39 guy, brEad and 13 others like this.
  13. Happydaze
    Joined: Aug 21, 2009
    Posts: 1,904

    Happydaze
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    You're increasingly tempting me to chop mine!

    Q. The notches in the screen apperture which allow the dash fixings to work. I'm thinking they will also allow any water that's got past the seal to enter the inside of the car; indeed there's nowhere else for any moisture to go, and it's downhill into the car! I've been thinking about filling said notches and using rivnuts or something similar. Any thoughts?

    Chris
     
    loudbang likes this.
  14. wicarnut
    Joined: Oct 29, 2009
    Posts: 9,052

    wicarnut
    Member

    Admire your skill's, confidence (Big Balls IMO) to chop on such an expensive body, nice work ! I will follow along to see finished car.
     
    loudbang likes this.
  15. i.rant
    Joined: Nov 23, 2009
    Posts: 4,301

    i.rant
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    1. 1940 Ford

    Reading your thread gave me a whole new appreciation about what it takes to chop a top correctly and finish the many details which are non apparent.
    Your skills and patience are amazing,thanks for sharing.
     
    The 39 guy, RustyDogg and loudbang like this.
  16. Bcap55
    Joined: Oct 5, 2009
    Posts: 301

    Bcap55
    Member
    from PA, USA

    Your right Chris, that is a clear path for water to get inside. I never gave that a thought, but I don't see why you couldn't fill those in and use rivnuts for the mounting screws. Good idea Chris.
    If you decide to chop your coupe (and I think you should) start a thread here on the HAMB so we can follow along. Good luck.
     
    loudbang likes this.
  17. Bcap55
    Joined: Oct 5, 2009
    Posts: 301

    Bcap55
    Member
    from PA, USA

    Some of the easiest pieces to chop are the window garnish mouldings. Here is a tip for anyone planning on ordering a Brookville coupe. Be sure and tell them you want the fully assembled garnish mouldings. For some reason they shipped unassembled pieces. I could not figure out how to put them together. I was able to return those and exchange them for finished pieces.
    Cut lines for the door pieces.
    IMG_20180121_132010430.jpg
    Here is how far the top part needs to be moved forward.
    IMG_20180121_140342534 (1).jpg
    Here is were the stretch happens. Just like the door stretch, I used the cut out section from the chop to fill in the gap.
    IMG_20180121_162733711.jpg
    Nice tight gaps. Easy to weld.
    IMG_20180121_140406993 (1).jpg IMG_20180121_162742563.jpg
    All welded up. You can see the relief cut on the left side upright needed to line up the edge. The other door moulding didn't need any adjustment.
    IMG_20180114_185313000.jpg
    Finished pieces.
    IMG_20180128_181355335.jpg IMG_20180128_181410878.jpg IMG_20180128_181322619.jpg IMG_20180128_182214498.jpg
    I used the same method to lay out the cut lines for the rear window moulding as I did for the rear window panel with the top chop.
    IMG_20171112_180141815.jpg IMG_20181207_164358736.jpg
    I wasn't happy with the way this part turned out. The width of the pieces at the cut line matched up, but the curvature did not. I tried to work these sections into a smoother curve, but the metal there was very stiff and wouldn't cooperate. You can see how the curvature is interrupted at the weld lines.
    IMG_20181207_164428261.jpg IMG_20181207_164442887.jpg
    Flop shows this part being chopped in one of his threads. He was able to make cuts and still keep the mounting screw holes in this area and keep a smooth curve in the part. I should have paid more attention to his method.
    I may try to fix this in the future with some heat to help make it easier to move the metal into place. If not a little bit of filler will smooth out the curve.
    And now the easiest piece to chop, The windshield frame.
    IMG_20180429_135718711.jpg
    No welding or grinding. Just remove the corner brackets holding the two pieces together, make your cuts and drill new holes for the bracket screws and your done.
    That's it for this update.
    Thanks for looking.
     
    The 39 guy, brEad, mgtstumpy and 10 others like this.
  18. RustyDogg
    Joined: Oct 8, 2014
    Posts: 170

    RustyDogg
    Member

    You're doing excellent work here. And it never ceases to amaze me the absolute talent, knowledge and craftsmanship of some badass mofo's that share so much of what they do on these pages. With that being said, I have a shit ton of scrap steel I could be running beads on! Lol
     
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  19. Rickybop
    Joined: May 23, 2008
    Posts: 9,606

    Rickybop
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Thank you for today's lesson, Master. :D
     
    loudbang and j hansen like this.
  20. Super Streak
    Joined: Nov 22, 2011
    Posts: 296

    Super Streak
    Member
    from Florida

    Awesome job!!! Like the way you explained your procedure and the photo's that go along with it. Can't wait to see the finished car.
     
    loudbang likes this.
  21. adam401
    Joined: Dec 27, 2007
    Posts: 2,856

    adam401
    Member

    Beautiful work and very well thought out. Thanks for posting.
     
    loudbang likes this.
  22. dirty old man
    Joined: Feb 2, 2008
    Posts: 8,910

    dirty old man
    Member Emeritus

    Absolutely amazing, You've got the patience , confidence and skills and I'm grateful you've shared it with us.
     
  23. Bcap55
    Joined: Oct 5, 2009
    Posts: 301

    Bcap55
    Member
    from PA, USA

    Thank you, and your welcome.
     
    loudbang likes this.
  24. brady1929
    Joined: Sep 30, 2006
    Posts: 9,253

    brady1929
    Member

    Could you please explain the process from tack welding to finished product? I would like to know the steps you take to make the finished product look so good.
     
    RICH B and loudbang like this.
  25. Bcap55
    Joined: Oct 5, 2009
    Posts: 301

    Bcap55
    Member
    from PA, USA

    Sorry I didn't respond to your question, I was busy in the shop all day. I'll try to post an update Monday, and have a detailed description on how I finish the weld areas.
     
    loudbang likes this.
  26. brady1929
    Joined: Sep 30, 2006
    Posts: 9,253

    brady1929
    Member

    Thank you. I am sure others could benefit from this information too.
     
    loudbang likes this.
  27. Frankie47
    Joined: Dec 20, 2008
    Posts: 1,877

    Frankie47
    Member
    from omaha ne.

    Now all we need is a Bcap55 vs Flop vs Cody Walls build off thread.....:)
     
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  28. brady1929
    Joined: Sep 30, 2006
    Posts: 9,253

    brady1929
    Member

    I like it. Hot Rod Build Off on the Discovery channel.
     
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  29. Bcap55
    Joined: Oct 5, 2009
    Posts: 301

    Bcap55
    Member
    from PA, USA

    Geez, you're putting me up against some tuff competition. I guess I'll be happy with a bronze medal.
     
    brEad, loudbang and Frankie47 like this.
  30. Bcap55
    Joined: Oct 5, 2009
    Posts: 301

    Bcap55
    Member
    from PA, USA

    There was some misalignment of the body lines at the rear door opening that needed fixing. Gotta get those lines looking like they used to.
    Drivers side:
    IMG_20180311_185724369.jpg
    Passenger side:
    IMG_20180311_185754087.jpg
    Cut lines:
    IMG_20180415_133611640.jpg IMG_20180408_150456367 - Copy.jpg
    Make the cuts long enough. Don't try to fix the misalignment in to short a distance, you will wind up with a step in the body line instead of a smooth transition along the entire feature. Bring the two cuts close together at the top, but not all the way. Leave a little attached at the top. This will be your hinge point when you move the piece back.
    IMG_20180415_135854443.jpg IMG_20180415_145931270.jpg IMG_20180408_151709840 - Copy.jpg IMG_20180408_161724828.jpg
    The drivers side upper part stuck out father than the lower so a relief cut was needed to line things up. I just pushed the piece inward and welded it up.
    IMG_20180415_141955228.jpg IMG_20180415_143639446.jpg
    Someone asked how the bigger relief cuts were filled in. On the drivers side, I cut a wedge shape piece of sheet metal to fill the gap and welded it all up.
    IMG_20180415_154740201.jpg IMG_20180415_180555687.jpg
    The rear of the passenger door opening had a low spot that needed to be pulled out. I made a cut and moved that section forward to get a straighter line along the edge. I filled this cut with a piece of tig welding rod and just welded over top of it.
    IMG_20180408_184907342.jpg IMG_20180408_185716209.jpg
    All done:
    IMG_20180415_193541752.jpg IMG_20180415_193620082.jpg IMG_20180408_193053663.jpg
    The gap at the top of the door was to big. I added some 1/8" rod and welded it in and filed it to shape to close up the gap.
    IMG_20181028_133857263.jpg IMG_20181028_155209877.jpg IMG_20181028_180346549.jpg

    Since someone asked, this is how I weld and finish sheet metal:
    I try to use as little weld as possible to fill the joints, in other words little gaps good big gaps bad. Take the time to get as small a gap as possible. Less weld metal means less distortion. Fill in big gaps with pieces of sheet metal or rod, don't try to fill them with weld. Also make sure both surfaces are lined up level across the joint before you tack them.
    After the joint is tacked, I grind the tacks down almost flush with a die grinder and a 3" dia. x 1/8" thick grinding wheel. I finish weld from tack to tack, skipping around or using an air hose to cool the joint to prevent overheating.
    I grind the finished welds down again almost flush with the base metal using a die grinder and 3" wheel.
    Now on high areas like the body reveal mouldings above and the roof edge where the filler strip was added and the A pillar outer skin pieces, I like to use a file to knock down the welds flush with the surrounding metal. I get a flatter finish across the weld joint and this helps eliminate any gouging or low spots from using a grinding wheel or sanding disc. Any areas not accessible with files, I finish the welds with 3" 80 and 120 grit sanding discs.
    On flatter areas like the roof insert and sail panel I weld the seams as described above. I grind the welds down almost flush again. The weld seams on the sail panel and roof insert were all lower than the surrounding metal due to distortion from the weld bead shrinkage. This is where I use either a hammer and dolly or the plannishing hammer to stretch the weld area to bring the joint up flush with the surrounding metal. You can't finish grind or sand the weld down until this is done if you want nice smooth metal.
    After all the sanding and grinding is done I take a DA sander with 120, 220 and 320 grit paper and go over everything to give it a nice even finish. This is a good way of getting rid of minor high spots.
    I use a regular die grinder for most of the work, but I like to use this die grinder for more precise and delicate grinding .

    https://www.amazon.com/Jet-JSM-5430-4-inch-Speed-Grinder/dp/B0012OCWW2
    It's a low speed high torque grinder (Jet Model JSM-5430). You can use this with a 3" grinding wheel and have it turn very slowly and still have the power to grind welds down with greater accuracy and control. It's pricey but very well built. I highly recommend it for anyone doing bodywork.
    If there is anything I did not cover let me know, I'll try to answer any questions.
    I won't have time to respond until Wednesday.
    Thanks for looking.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
    dlw1932, The 39 guy, D-Russ and 10 others like this.

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