Technical Runs but timing at 30 advanced - solved

I had a similar problem with a '68 302. I know this is a Studebaker but it looks to have basically the same oil pump drive design as a Ford or Chevy.....
The engine would only run at extreme advance. The pointer was close....but no cigar. I even tried clocking the plug wires to get them closer to the pointer. I removed and installed the distributor several times and still it would miss where I wanted to be....(rotor pointed to #1). Like I said it was close but no cigar.

Remedy....
"Lightly" holding the distributor up over where I wanted it.....I had a helper bump the starter. It meshed in the right spot and dropped down right where I wanted it.

Cause.....

The oil pump drive would not allow it to mesh in the right spot.....bumping the starter lined everything up and it dropped down in the right spot.

This may not be the problem but it's worth a shot.

Is this a new distributor or a old one with new petronix guts?.....

The same session above.....I went round and round with a "good" distributor......I was not having much luck. I had a old 289 distributor and placed it in the right position as described above.....she fired up and ran perfectly.

 

I could be wrong here, but the only reason for ignition advance is because of the time it takes to ignite the air/fuel mixture. The less efficient the combustion chamber design, the more advance required. That being said, the best combustion chambers that I am aware of will use around 26/28 degrees ( total )ignition timing advance. IMO, I would set the damper to align with the 15 degree mark (BTC)...have the distributor set at # 1 cylinder ( this will be initial) start the engine, set total @ 34/36 degrees (above 2500 rpm). If you experience pinging, back of the timing in 2 degree increments until pinging stops. I hope this helps.

 

info covered in this article may help you: Hot Rod magazine January 2019 page 86-88 "Why does my small-block Chevy need 30 degrees of base timing to run, and is that much OK?

 

I know it is a new Pertronix distributor and Pertronix is good stuff , but in doing this for 60 years I have found that just because it is new out of the the box does not mean it is right. A lot of distributor gears have a odd number of teeth,so if the gear is 180 out the rotor does not line up.

 

It took some digging, but I found valve timing events for the R-1 cam, they are
17-63/56-24 at .030 and when I ran the numbers with IN duration of 253* and EX of 267* even though the durations are different maximum lift is the same on both with lobe centers of 109.5*.
On the exhaust side the longer duration opens the valve earlier and closes it later by a total of 14* giving the lobe more time at maximum lift.
Also, I looked at timing gears, 54 teeth on the cam gear so if (and I do mean if) it was a tooth off that would account for 6 2/3* of cam advance or retard.
I think at one point you mentioned the engine was sluggish on the bottom end, but an advanced cam should be stronger on the low end.

 

HERES A CRAZY THOUGHT-
Studebaker dampeners (not the uncommon thick-ring R1 type, but the thin disc type on 99.99% of the cars) are mounted with rubber cushions with 6 bolts going through them in a circle pattern.
The way Stude "indexed" the timing marks on the disc to correspond to the right "phasing" of Number One Cyl was to move a couple of the six-in-a-circle bolts out-of-pattern so they were not evenly spaced so you could only mount the dampener disc one way. or so it was planned...
THAT IS NOT FOOLPROOF WITH A HAM FISTED "MECHANIC".
It is easily possible that a so called "mechanic" could have forced the dampener disc onto the rubber washers out-of-position and not realised it.
One thing you can do is to disassemble the dampener off the 6 bolts and examine the rubber washers for signs of being crushed into the wrong positions or other misfit clues that could indicate an out of position timing disc.

WHY BE ORDINARY ?

 

The two rubber washers with the RED exclamation points inside them can easily be stretched or mashed to allow the big timing/dampening disc to be mounted off-position by any "mechanic" who does not know the bolt holes are deliberately not evenly spaced.
It could be off by one or more bolt holes, OR I wonder if the disc with the timing marks can even be flipped backwards.
??
WAIT, come to think of it, once long ago in the early 1970s, I ran into something similar when I used a 1951 232 dampener on a late engine. or was it the other way around?
The timing marks on that one didnt make sense and didnt line up with the pointer.
I just timed it by ear and drove it for years.
Could there have been a slight keyway change, or timing cover pointer change back in the first couple years of Stude v8s?
WAIT, another possibility to check...
I do remember there being a stamped steel timing cover without a fuel pump boss on the early engines (pump on top of engine filler pipe), and then later on the timing cover was cast aluminum with a fuel pump mount built in the side of the cover.
THIS MAY BE IT-- Its possible that the timing reference mark could have been moved with the timing cover redesign.... ?
I ran a 232 stamped gear cover with no fuel pump mount on an engine intended for an electric pump.
I barely remember it happening only ONE time.
I never pursued the answer, and never thought about it again until just now. hmmm.
anyway, all the later dampeners I messed with always were the same, fit the same, and acted the same.
I very seriously doubt you have my old engine from many decades ago, so I'll guess somebody else could have swapped things around and encountered something that would never happen 99.9999% of the time.
a stamped steel timing cover being used with a dampener intended for an aluminum cover?
or an aluminum cover being used with a dampener intended for an engine with the steel stamped cover? maybe....

WHY BE ORDINARY ?

 

I don't suppose you can drop in the original points distr to compare to the pertronix? I can't see it being a distr problem but you need to rule it out before biting the bullet and pulling the front end apart to put on a degree wheel. That is where this is heading.

 

I had a similar issue when timing my engine after doing major work to it.
Make sure if you’re using a dial back timing light, that you set the dial to ZERO when first checking the timing.
Took me two days to realize by hip was bumping the knob around.


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Sorry I haven't been back sooner - have the grandkids for a few days over Thanksgiving. Just quickly trying to remember all the questions: I have used the original distributor, moved tooth, moved wires, the damper is on correctly, and timing cover the same as my other engines, verified TDC with piston stop and timing pointer alignment, etc. I did the "Zero Degree Overlap" procedure which showed the cam was advanced. My previous valve timing tests with the double marked cam gear that was on the engine when I got the car and the new one I installed both tested the same which led me to (foolishly apparently) assume that the variation was caused by the non-stock cam.
I have also posted on the Studebaker Driver Club Forum and Jack Vines, who rebuilds lots of Stude engines,
has given advice which was very helpful.
I am pretty certain that the valve timing is off even though the gears are installed correctly. So I will be getting someone who is more knowledgeable about camshaft timing than I to help me get this right. When I get it corrected I will post what was done as it was disappointing when others had the problem but never explained what was done to
correct the issue if anything.
Also, I want to thank all of you who offered advice. Some spent some serious time trying to provide information and possible solutions and a special thank to them. But I appreciate all of the suggestions as I know it is easy to overlook as possible solution when one gets frustrated. And I've been that. So again "THANK YOU".

 

It looks like you'll have to remove timing cover, then with a degree wheel get the cam installed properly. If you've never done it you'll need assistance. Before starting I would want cam manufacturer recommendation as well as Studebaker experts advice. Offset keys are available in various increments to get it right.

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This makes the most sense and having the cam specs will be key to figuring it out. All the pieces to the puzzle seem to be present. I'd be interested on how the crank gear looks.

 

I dont think anything is wrong with it. From what you describe this is a supercharged engine without a supercharger. If that is true, it probably has low static compression. Low compression engines are very sluggish and that can be " covered up" with a lot of ignition lead. You can get away with running a lot if ignition timing on a low compression engine because the cylinder pressure is low. If you put the blower on it with some boost it will have a lot more power at low speed and will run much better with less ignition lead.

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Please take a look at this post: https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/timing-way-off-but-runs-great.649643/page-3#post-7214133

 

Well yesterday I tore into the project. I set the engine at TDC with #1 on the compression stroke (both valves closed) then took it apart.
I found that the damper was installed correctly, the cam gear dot is in the correct place, and was assembled correctly.
I have a couple friends who race and build engines so I am hoping one of them can help me degree the camshaft.
Also, the same day a guy responds on the Studebaker Drivers Club forum that he solved the same problem in an early Dodge hemi by removing the Pertronix powered distributor and replacing it with MSD. The first time anyone has provided a solution that I know of.
And I have a Pertronix distributor which is giving me problems also. Will start and run, but when shut off will not start again (no spark at the plugs) for about half an hour and then with difficulty. I just replaced the module and that did not solve the issue. At least it was under warranty. I followed the techs procedure to determine that the coil is not the problem. I did install the points distributor at one time but must have gotten the same result as I put the Pertronix back in. Too much screwing around with this issue to keep things straight. After degreeing the cam I will try the original distributor again.

 

I've heard too much bad things related to Pertronix distributors... I wound up with a no-name eBay special on my SBC (works great)... so I have shied away from them. At least with points there is a lot less mystery. Put some good parts in the points distributor and give it a shot.

I set my distributor up with a couple of smarter-than-me guys helping out. Initial advance is 12, total 36ish in by 2500. I'm not using the vacuum advance, I have it capped off on their advice.

 

sounds like you know what you are doing
and in your lead post you did say the carburetor is rebuilt and adjusted correctly but...

years ago I had a similar issue,
engine would not run worth a damn without lots of advance,
even then it wasn't right.
turned out the carb was adjusted way too rich
I set the timing first then adjusted the carburetor,
in my case that was the solution.

 

I'm not convinced you have a problem that needs a solution. Did you read the post & thread I linked to?

 

In my initial post on valve timing for the R-1 cam I had transposed the IC and EO events , and it is really no excuse on my part but Studebaker has an odd way of listing camshaft specs.
Anyway the numbers should be as follows, IN 17*/63* and EX 56*/24* at a .030 checking clearance. That has an effect on the duration, it is 260* for both IN and EX not the 253 and 267 I had earlier posted, and the overlap is 41*.
Most if not all aftermarket cam manufacturers have standardized on the .050 lift number for cam comparisons and if that was used here the duration and overlap would be even more conservative.
Now for some math: 260 duration divided by 2 = 130 - 17 IO = 113* for full lift. For the exhaust we have 130 - 24 = 106* at full lift. 113* + 106* = 219* which divided by 2 = 109.5* lobe center angle.
Because the LCA is 109.5* and the IN centerline is 113* the cam will be 3.5* retarded when installed at factory specs. Camshaft retard will help top end power.
Sorry about the mistake, I’m glad I caught it as having the factory numbers might help when you degree the cam.

 

You said :
it has a new pertronix distributor, coil and wires, I have used a dial back and old timing lights both with the same results.
With the timing pointer at the damper at factory spec of 4 degrees advance for it to run well the #1 distributor wire terminal is about 1/2" before the rotor position where it should be.

My vote is for a defective distributor , module, pick up incorrect rotor phase etc Or incorrect rotation for engine . All of this would be very easy to mess up.
Like other posters have suggested before you tear down much more replace the distributor and coil with some factory stuff.........

 

Only way to fix it is to "know where you are to begin with"!
Make you a piston stop and screw it into No.1 cylinder. (By hand) roll engine over until the piston bumps the stop...and mark your balancer. NOW roll the engine the OPPOSITE direction and when the piston bumps the stop...mark that spot on the balancer.
Measure between the two marks and THAT MY FRIEND...is true TDC.
Is that where your pointer is pointing?
Next step would be to get a timing tape and attach it to your balancer with the TDC (0) markings on your new true TDC mark. With a regular old fashion "cheap" timing light check your timing and see where the pointer is pointing while the engine idles (with the vacuum advance plugged.)
I would bet the engine would NOT run or run like pure shit if the cam is off enough to make the ignition timing 30* advanced. There's just NOT that much slop in an engine!
Your IGNITON is outta whack...not your cam timing. Two totally different animals. IMHO
6sally6

 

Blues4U- I did but still think there is a problem. I've had three other Stude 289s and they don't even sound the same.
Fordors - Thanks for the information.
6Sally6 - I have already used a piston stop to determine the pointer and TDC mark is correct.
At this point I will degree the cam to eliminate that issue before anything else.

 

This may or may not be helpful information.
My wife has a '55 Chevy BelAir 235 six her Mother (rip) bought new. It needed rebuilding about 10 years ago as it had 250k miles. A good friend (rip) was a machinist, rebuilt it, did a fantastic job...but it ran poorly. Timing way off, vacuum off, shifting, etc. Barely drivable.
At the time my wife supplied all parts, including a mild aftermarket cam.
Long story short I contacted Competition Cams. I finally spoke with Trevor Wiggins there who supplied us with the factory stock grind cam and lifters. I installed it "straight up", verifying with a degree wheel. With degree wheel I also verified cam specs were on the money, thanks to Comp. Cams and Trevor.
The car now starts, idles, drives as new.
I set the initial timing at TDC as factory specs. Timing I verified at factory specs. Trans shifting, carburetor, is perfect and it's a joy to drive.

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I will be able to degree the cam with help and then will be slowed down after having minor surgery yesterday.
6 weeks of not lifting, etc. I will continue to post as and if progress is made. I want this to have a conclusion to help others who have experienced this issue.
Again, a sincere THANK YOU to all for the help.

 

Beat me to it. That, or check the gap between rotor and cap contacts.

 

Your dialback timing light seems to be showing twice the number of degrees required,
Does your light have a 2 stroke moter setting ?
That would change numbers.

 

Is anyone else's head spinning?

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Well I got a degree wheel and last night some friends helped check out the cam installation. It is good so I can cross that off the list now. Next will be putting it back together checking valve lash and then tackling the distributor which now seems to be the only explanation.

 

After you change distributors from a good running engine (my opinion is the only way to prove it out) and it still runs the same ... now what? Honestly I have a hard time imagining what could possibly be wrong with a distributor that would make the engine not run "right" at a certain timing position but run ok at the "wrong" timing position?

If this engine has always run like this since it was assembled, you need to consider that it is a mismatch of parts (i.e. cam/compression) like I mentioned a page or 2 back. I have seen this many times. Just trying to save you a bunch of wasted time and money.

Again... my bet is it needs the blower to make it run like you expect. But.. opinions are like belly buttons.. everyone has one.

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does a factory supercharged engine have lower compression and retarded cam timing to compensate for the boost? If you have one of those cheep aftermarket roller timing chains. Throw that streechy thing away and get a good link belt one. and use a degree wheel and properly time the cam. start out straight up(center the overlap) then advance and retard as needed.