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Technical Model A Title

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Time Bandit, Nov 10, 2018.

  1. H380
    Joined: Sep 20, 2015
    Posts: 483

    H380
    Member
    from Louisiana

    That's fine for you if the numbers match. BUT, when you or your widow goes to sell the car. Then there is the problem. The car does not match the paper work. You have no proof you own that car. It does not match the title. ALSO if you ever get in a accident do you think State Farm will pay out on that car you don't have paperwork on? You are probably going to end up in court for insurance fraud. Just things to think about. Trying to screw "The Man" only screws yourself. The Man always wins.
     
    24riverview and gimpyshotrods like this.
  2. 1946caddy
    Joined: Dec 18, 2013
    Posts: 2,059

    1946caddy
    Member
    from washington

    Russco and low down A like this.
  3. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 23,263

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    CHP will here in California, and you don't get to be there.

    If there is an issue, you never see the car again.
     
  4. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 23,263

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

  5. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 23,263

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    That's not correct. I have had no contact with anyone who worked for Ford in Canada, but in the US, this is how it went down, as this document states, and how my own family history recalls it:

    "THE FRAME STAMPINGS:

    Once the engines were delivered to the assembly plants, either by ship or boxcar, they were then transferred to the assembly line. Engines that were stored in boxcars could have caused later engines to be used before earlier engines. Here, the workers kept a close eye on which engine to drop into a particular chassis as it was the hopes that all “A” engines were dropped into a car and/or commercial “A” chassis and the “AA” engines were dropped into the heavy duty “AA” chassis. Once the engine was secured in the chassis coming down the assembly line, another worker looked at the number on the engine number pad and then transferred that number, just as it appeared on the pad itself, to the top, left Frame Side Member of the “A” or “AA” chassis.. "

    Like I have said, you can try to argue with me all you want. You are wrong, and that's the end of the story.

    The state that I live in knows that you are wrong, and the last two states that I have lived in know that you are wrong, too. They have the final word on this, and you do not. Run afoul of the authorities over your opinion, and you, at-minimum, lose your car. At-maximum, you might do jail or prison time.
     
  6. tfeverfred
    Joined: Nov 11, 2006
    Posts: 15,791

    tfeverfred
    Member Emeritus

    Of course the numbers would match. I'm laughing out loud because everything you posted is unrelated to the my experiences with the DMV. It's good information, but I'm trying to figure out why you felt the need to quote me and post all that other...... "stuff"?

    So, I'll state it again..... I have never had a car require an inspection during the title process.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2018
  7. 1946caddy
    Joined: Dec 18, 2013
    Posts: 2,059

    1946caddy
    Member
    from washington

    Last edited: Nov 11, 2018
  8. H380
    Joined: Sep 20, 2015
    Posts: 483

    H380
    Member
    from Louisiana

    But you are straight up implying to do the paperwork if you can get away with it and are committing multiple crimes. All I'm saying is you can not get away with anything. The number on the paper must match the original numbers however that happens legally. OR you must have state issued replacement modern VIN#. That is the only 2 options you really have.

    My state doesn't inspect #s if its a current or recent title either. If the title is old and not recently renewed and does not have a modern VIN# (the frame or engine # is used). You need a new State issued modern VIN issued. Which means a state trooper comes to your house and wants receipts for everything new and a good story for the old stuff without paperwork. It must be a 100% complete ready to be inspected and road worthy. It is also up to the individual officer to what year the car will be.

    I'm trying not to be a dick. But the place I work among other things is a state licensed vehicle manufacturer. So I get to go through this once or twice a year to get #s stamped into new motorcycle frames. Here it is the exact same process for a car new or old. Or a home built trailer just a state issued SN# in place of a VIN#. Our motorcycles go all over the world with a state issued VIN. But it is a current year new vehicle. I don't know about other states and new VINs on old cars vs original numbers.
     
    gimpyshotrods likes this.
  9. steves29
    Joined: Jan 19, 2010
    Posts: 194

    steves29
    Member

    Thank you for the info.
    Maybe I have the only frame that missed a number.

    Sent from my SM-J327W using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
    raven likes this.
  10. steves29
    Joined: Jan 19, 2010
    Posts: 194

    steves29
    Member

    Anything I said is entirely possible. This wasn't intended to sidetrack any laws.

    Sent from my SM-J327W using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  11. weemark
    Joined: Sep 1, 2002
    Posts: 830

    weemark
    Member
    from scotland

    ive seen quite a few frames which don't have numbers stamped into them, these are all unmodified completely stock frames, the fact is its not unusual no matter what anyone here says.
     
    raven likes this.
  12. steves29
    Joined: Jan 19, 2010
    Posts: 194

    steves29
    Member

    Also very likely over the years to have an engine swap from a wrecking yard.
    Now you would have nothing matching pink slip. No law broken where I come from.

    Sent from my SM-J327W using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
    weemark likes this.
  13. H380
    Joined: Sep 20, 2015
    Posts: 483

    H380
    Member
    from Louisiana

    Except whenever the swap happened the title should have been changed to match the new numbers at that time. So today that needs to take place. That is all that is being said here. Doesn't matter that the numbers disappeared 60 years ago or 6 days ago.
     
    weemark and gimpyshotrods like this.
  14. Model A Gomez
    Joined: Aug 26, 2006
    Posts: 1,695

    Model A Gomez
    Member

    After 30 years of working on Model A's I have to agree with the folks that say the serial number is stamped on the frame on a Model A. It is stamped on top the frame just behind the front cowl mounting bolt on the left frame rail, sometimes they are hard to find. A state trooper who did inspections here suggested using a wire brush on the frame and then spraying it with Easy Off oven cleaner and then wire brushing it again. Cleans the rust out of the stampings, a lot of them are hard to read since they were under the cloth strip on the frame and rusted.
     
    gimpyshotrods likes this.
  15. Also hold a flashlight at a low angle to make the numbers easier to read.

    Charlie Stephens
     
    gimpyshotrods likes this.
  16. no55mad
    Joined: Dec 15, 2006
    Posts: 1,956

    no55mad
    Member

    Gimpy is a big help for Calif registration here on the HAMB. Gimpy, if you could chime back in, could you explain how a model A can be registered in Calif with no vin on the body or frame? Does it have to be 'blue tagged'?
     
  17. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 23,263

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    SB100.

    Outside of bodies that were built by coach builders, and not Ford, the number was only on the frame and engine.

    I bought, not that long ago, an original frame and engine with matching numbers.

    They are out there.
     
  18. BamaMav
    Joined: Jun 19, 2011
    Posts: 6,709

    BamaMav
    Member
    from Berry, AL

    With no numbers, a new State issued number may be the only choice. Rebuilt from scrap maybe? Gimpy would know for sure as he's out there. Just happy we don't have titles and all those problems here on the old stuff.
     
  19. The DMV in your state is the place too as the question. HRP
     
    tfeverfred likes this.
  20. AKGrouch
    Joined: Oct 19, 2014
    Posts: 207

    AKGrouch
    Member

    The Murray body number on the firewall is the VIN on my 1931 Ford title
     
  21. That is what happens when they hire new employees, I unfortunately have heard of it before.

    Charlie Stephens
     
  22. Beanscoot
    Joined: May 14, 2008
    Posts: 3,053

    Beanscoot
    Member

    "I guess the search function does not work as there have been many threads here on ford titles and numbers."

    Yes, but it's too much fun to resist going through it all over again.
     
  23. In Ca. if your title hasn't had the registration paid in more than 5 years its out of the system.To get back in you need a CHP inspection. If you start from scratch as new construction you will need a brake station inspection,light station inspection,and smog station inspection.Engines are smogged to the year of the engine.A 1990"s engine may need a smog pump,catconverter etc.Heres where a flathead motor comes in handy....no smog.Then the CHP inspects,and affixes the blue tag with their number..Ca is not a user friendly place. Too bad you don't have family or friends in Wisconsin with a street address.They do DMV by mail on form MV1 no inspection . I have a barn find T that hasn't been registered in 50 years.I mailed in my Fee money,and received title,and plates. The T engine is listed as the VIN now.Should I ever move back to Ca.{I hope not}the DMV will come out in the parking lot,and look at the left front frame rail to make sure the numbers match my current title before they issue a Ca title in my name.Been there done that....Handy fact the 1/4 inch tall numbers have a 1/4 inch star at the front,and back if your ever looking for frame numbers...…..
     
  24. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,681

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    The Murray number was purely a Murray number, perhaps for quality/origin records at Murray. It was nothing to do with number of record for a Ford car.
    the A or AA designation was based purely on the engine/trans combination, as engines headed to assembly line were shipped and recorded as a unit. I would think that no heavy trucks got an A engine. Early AA engines had a heavy duty pressure plate, '30-31 ones had four speeds, I don't know about middle aged ones! There were AA engine units and hence AA serials in some few cars. Cars could be special ordered I believe with four speeds, probably for the grumpy farmer trade. This required a special set of U-joint stuff that Ford cataloged but all else would bolt together. This is an oddball but real combo.
    Also, Ford sold bare chassis as the basis for special bodies...these were running cars with serials and registered just like complete rigs. Lots of delivery trucks started life thus. They had just enough tin to support the gas tank! These were CARS legally and in fact. I would imagine that you could have special ordered a complete boy shell but there would not have been any legally useful number...it would be just a replacement part sold over the counter.
    Worst case I have heard of was a rodder who searched his '41 Ford frame for a serial. He found it...11A-5019. He got that registered at a sloppy DMV. That was the part number for his front crossmember!! Someday he might find himself hung up after a wreck or a theft...
    And I would bet there are a lot of old Fords running around registered to patent numbers from the little patent plate or to some casting # on an engine part.
    To complicate life...truly complete engines, meaning with all accessories and run tested, were sold as replacement units and to assemblers of welders and cement mixers and such...these got serial numbers...so there are Ford serials out there that never belonged to a proper vehicle.
     
    weemark likes this.
  25. Beanscoot
    Joined: May 14, 2008
    Posts: 3,053

    Beanscoot
    Member

    "Cars could be special ordered I believe with four speeds, probably for the grumpy farmer trade."
    Interesting!

    "To complicate life...truly complete engines, meaning with all accessories and run tested, were sold as replacement units and to assemblers of welders and cement mixers and such...these got serial numbers...so there are Ford serials out there that never belonged to a proper vehicle."

    So I suppose if one found what he was sure was an industrial engine, he could mate it to an aftermarket or replacement frame and attempt to register it... oh boy.
     
  26. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,681

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    Also...imagine a Model A that got a replacement engine from a junkyard in 1939. The car then had 2 numbers. Its proper engine was then rebuilt and put into another A, which was eventually sold and registered underthat number. A number one was then scrapped, and Joe HAMB found the frame and buile and registered a car from that. Maenwhile the several engines now involved went various ways and several of A number ones NY state registrations were sold on Ebay and used in various shady ways...How many Model A's could now be running around under engine and fram numbers of the original Ford??
     
    gimpyshotrods and weemark like this.
  27. 55styleliner
    Joined: May 11, 2015
    Posts: 563

    55styleliner
    Member

    This VIN issue is taken way too seriously on Model As. For them it is nothing but a number, a means to getting a registration. Get a number by whatever legal means your state allows, whatever the number is it wont affect the value. On later vehicles, like muscle cars, the VIN holds valuable data that affects the cars value. Like whether it was born with a 6cyl or a big block V8. Swapping VINS on such vehicles can lead to fraud charges because it can significantly change the value of the vehicle. On a Model A, the condition and the body type mostly determine value. Nothing in the VIN tells anything about that. So, "matching numbers" means nothing on a Model A, especially street rods. A modern VIN will not affect the value. Get one if it is easier.
     
    weemark, low down A and VANDENPLAS like this.
  28. Mr T body
    Joined: Nov 2, 2005
    Posts: 2,228

    Mr T body
    Alliance Vendor
    from BHC AZ

    When I built my '31 coupe, I taped off the VIN on the left rail, painted around it and cleared over the bare metal. The master cylinder access panel was made just big enough so when removed you could just see the stamping, but at the CHP's suggestion they made and affixed a state VIN tag with the original VIN to the driver's B pillar. Don't need no hassles with the state......
     
  29. Atwater Mike
    Joined: May 31, 2002
    Posts: 11,625

    Atwater Mike
    Member

    Zealots. Loving their assigned jobs.
     
    weemark likes this.
  30. low down A
    Joined: Feb 6, 2009
    Posts: 500

    low down A
    Member

    finally some one with some common sense. well said 55styleliner
     
    55styleliner likes this.

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