Technical Maddening solenoid issue

So I've wired the 39 completely with a new Rebel harness (great product). I'm using a heavy duty 12V solenoid, fairly certain everything is wired correct, my friend that assisted recommended a relay to activate the solenoid in order to operate the start function with the original starter button. Now the maddening part. No matter how I connect the solenoid I get nothing. I'm on the battery side with the big cable, either small terminal, nothing. Thinking just bad luck pulled a new continuous duty solenoid out of my box, again, even in bench testing, nothing. 2 bad ones in a row? Wrong solenoid completely? Is there a right n wrong solenoid? Why can't I get it to activate in bench testing? Even the cheater way to start your car, jump the small terminal, nothing. To many trees for me to see the forest? When I activate the relay inside I get 12v to the purple wire in the picture, and again regardless of solenoid terminal I get nuthin. Here's a pic of what I'm using. Can anyone help me stop smashing my head on a block wall?

The other one, same/same..


As always, thanks in advance.

 

Make sure the case is properly grounded. Also the purple wire should be to the S terminal. In your pic it looks like it is but I'd double check.

Lastly you should have 12 volts at the purple wire with the key in the start position.

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If you're using the original starter button as it was originally intended, it simply is a grounding switch that triggers the solenoid. I don't think the relay is necessary.

Rich

 

looks like feed and load are swapped to me. Case must be grounded. I do this all the time and use the stock button to close a relay via ground to trigger the solenoid to start. Just installed a dual solenoid setup on a race car with issues. It was the case ground causing the issue

 

Also check the neutral safety switch or the clutch safety switch if you have one. It has to be closed to get power on the purple wire.

 

As stated make sure the case is grounded.

 

The all metal continuous duty switches are not like the Ford firewall starter switches. They are totally insulated, the second #10 small terminal is a ground not a feed back to the coil like a Ford switch.

 

I believe one of the small terminals is power into the coil of the solenoid and the other is power out to bypass the ballist resistor. What about moving the purple wire? Is the large red wire from the battery ?

 

I get 12v at the purple wire when I press the start button. Case is grounded, zapped it accidently a time or 3. It may be that I have to ground one of the small terminals? Only thing I didn't try. I was thinking using one of these was overkill duty-wise, but wanted all the amps I could get to the starter. I've had the purple wire on either small terminal, nothing. Red cable is battery, on the side marked battery. Thanks, this is helping.

 

Check my reply #7

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Looks like this is case. If so depending on the ignition system it begs the question; Is this the right solenoid for the application, as it does not have a "I" terminal for ballast resistor bypass?

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I had the exact same problem on my old Ford 9N. Here is how I fixed it. Your mileage may vary.

 

This… The type you have is typically used for winches, and one small terminal is negative, the other positive. These have no 'I' terminal like the Ford solenoids do.

 

Any day you learn something new is a good day. Phil

 

I'll also point out if you're using one of these for a starter solenoid, they're not as heavy-duty as the Ford ones are. But the Ford solenoids aren't rated for continuous duty either, the coils can burn out if used that way.

 

^^^^ this

 

Is that a "Well I'll be damned!" I heard all the way from S.E. Michigan? Or something similar?

 

Somebody on another forum said they found the duty cycle published somewhere, for a Ford starter relay.

10 seconds on, 20 minutes off. Thankfully, nobody has ever busted that spec. I think it's been swapped around though.

 

Maybe this will help explain it better, what you probably have is #4, "normal" ford style (60's-70's) is #3 and old ford with grounding starter button is #2.

 

Using a relay for a (relay) solenoid?

 

The relay is being used to power up the solenoid since I want to keep the OEM on/off switch and use the original starter button. Starter button makes ground to the relay which then sends voltage to the 'noid.

This is a very simple system in the car, the only "techy" work will be the sound system. Vac wipers, stock light switch in the column, stock on/off ign switch, stock start button. I like easy. Using a Powergen flathead alternator, all 12v bulbs, New Vintage Usa gauges. Maybe before the weekend is over I'll solve this case. thanks to all for the input.

 

Also, I've made a mental note about the 'noid duty cycle with regard to what I'm using. Maybe I'm wrong thinking winch or golf cart noids would take a little more "abuse", as in using a 6V starter on 12v. When I power up the starter it's a mutha. Spins hard n fast but I wouldn't be able to keep it up if I had a no-start issue for too long. I'm hoping once tuned it'll start faster than I can get my finger off the button

 

Looks like a good quality starter solenoid relay (call it what you want) rated for 12V 200 amps continuous duty is about $40 from Cole-Hersee, #34212 seems to be suitable. The main thing is the contacts are silver or tungsten instead of recycled beer cans.

 

If I understand, your starter button is grounding the 85 terminal of your relay and you are sending power via your purple wire from the relay 87 terminal to the solenoid trigger coil. And that is working. I've used a number of 200 and 300 amp continuous duty solenoids in start setups. A few ground the trigger coil to the case, but most of the ones I've bought have the coil wired to the other small terminal which needs to be grounded. Take your test meter and find out where the terminal you have your purple wire has continuity with - the case or the other small terminal.

 

It's the other small terminal. I missed that thought while "arguing" with this get-up, as in it didn't occur to me. If I'm thinking logically, the small post closest to the "BAT" side will get the volts, the other side the ground. And you're right, my starter button provides a ground. Ground the relay it sends 'juice' to the 'noid. Yes, that works. When I ground with the start button I get 12V at the small terminal or the purple wire. Feeling good about the solution. When I get over there I'm going to video the success, I just hope I can post it here.

 

If the solenoid trigger coil is just wired between the two small terminals, one gets power and one is grounded. Makes no difference which gets what.

 

Bigger but same. The small terminals are Pos/Neg . Doesn't matter witch.

 

VIOLA! Thank you everyone and e1956v and jmountainjr, a personal thanks as well. It may not have occurred to me to try it grounding the other small post. It works now and is just what I wanted. So here's some of where I want to take this.
Solenoid grounded;


Starter button to provide ground to the relay;

OEM on/off switch for ign;

Some other features are the OG light switch at the base of the column and the ever popular Signal Stat turn signal, painted to match.



I didn't want a shameless key switch jammed in the dash face, and equally so on the lights. Thanks again for the input.

 

They really aren't suitable... Starter motors draw a lot of amps, a 'typical' V8 starter will draw around 250 amps @ 12 volts, exceeding that rating by 25%. A 200 amp draw would be on the low side, say for a 6 cylinder or small V8, as much as 300 amps could be acceptable on a big, high compression engine. The small starter on a 1100CC 4 cylinder motorcycle I have draws over 90 amps when in good condition.

A 6V starter operated on 12 volts will draw more power than an equivalent 12V starter, but less than what it would draw on 6 volts.

Used for winches, these relays are nearly a regular maintenance item, even if following their duty cycle recommendations. Golf carts, their other typical main use, use even more powerful electric motors but use batteries in series at 36 to 48 volts so current is reduced down into the 150-170 amp range, within their rating.

 

Should be more than suitable shouldn't it?

The classic standard 8 buck Ford starter relay isn't rated anywhere near 200 amps continuous. The Y Block is listed at 155-190 amperes, but like any other V8 it's only for a second. I just grabbed that particular one as an example, I'm sure Cole-Hersee makes higher amp relays for complete overkill.

Starters too, have a duty cycle. I don't know what it is, if it's 20 minutes off for every 10 seconds, but it can't be much. It sure is excruciating to hear somebody grinding away and away for 30 seconds at a time on an engine that won't start. I've seen folks melt terminals and burn the paint off starters. Stupid fuckers! LOL