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Technical what do you consider freshening a motor?

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by evilokc, Oct 14, 2018.

  1. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 7,589

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    This is what I remember. This is what was typical back in the day. Even when I got in the business of heavy equipment repair, in-frame overhauls were very common. But then you might replace cylinder liners along with new pistons. But countless engines out there were rebuilt just as you described. I still remember my first overhaul, cleaning the carbon from the pistons, using a broken ring to scrap the ring grooves. I was all of about 16 years old. My dad just telling me what to do, then leaving me out in the garage to do it.
     
  2. LAROKE likes this.
  3. Back in the day a engine with a 100,000 miles that had never been apart was a really rare item. They where usually burning oil by 60 ,000 miles. and a set of rings would keep them going another twenty or thirty thousand miles. folks didn't worry about a pecking lifter or piston slap when cold. Heck they didn't even worry about the oil light flickering when at idle.
     
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  4. 49ratfink
    Joined: Feb 8, 2004
    Posts: 18,828

    49ratfink
    Member
    from California

    rebuild, overhaul freshening....

    well, rebuild is a trip to the machine shop. overhaul is a trip to the parts house for rings bearings cam lifters and chain so freshening to me would be gaskets and paint.. maybe cam and chain and oil pump.

    that's how I got it figgered. your mileage may vary.
     
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  5. I was going to say........
    Tumble it in the dryer with one of those Downy sheets. ? ... :oops:
    But naw, I think I'm on the wrong forum.
     
  6. kbgreen
    Joined: Jan 12, 2014
    Posts: 341

    kbgreen
    Member
    1. Georgia Hambers

    That's how I've seen it done in the past! A more thorough freshening is when the engine is cleaned of grease then painted!
    Looked at a "rebuilt" (there's another vague word) manual transmission a month ago. The guy fussed and fumed about me taking the inspection cover off. Found chewed up gears. But the exterior of the unit was cleaned and painted.
     
  7. GuyW
    Joined: Feb 23, 2007
    Posts: 649

    GuyW
    Member

    Fabreze ??

    Seriously, tho - if it gets too fresh, I'll have to slap it....
     
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  8. Kiwi 4d
    Joined: Sep 16, 2006
    Posts: 3,564

    Kiwi 4d
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I just pulled the sump of a banger to replace poorly installed seals, then gave the engine a full deluxe 1” freshen up ..... from a can and brush.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2018
  9. partsdawg
    Joined: Feb 12, 2006
    Posts: 3,503

    partsdawg
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Minnesota

    Knurled pistons.
    Haven’t thought about those in years.
     
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  10. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 11,459

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    Note to everyone. Don’t buy anything from this guy. :D
     
  11. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 33,861

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I have to agree with what he said. If the taper in the bores are good and the crank is good that gives you a "fresh" engine That should be good for a lot of miles.
     
  12. TWKundrat
    Joined: Apr 6, 2010
    Posts: 149

    TWKundrat
    Member

    Krylon holmes.

    Wait, I got my terms mixed up. That's a mexican rebuild not "freshening a motor"
     
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  13. triumph 1
    Joined: Feb 9, 2011
    Posts: 591

    triumph 1
    Member

    Same here, until I recently removed a set from my 303 olds!


    Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
     
  14. Johnny Gee
    Joined: Dec 3, 2009
    Posts: 12,602

    Johnny Gee
    Member
    from Downey, Ca

  15. The term 'freshening' means different things to different people...

    To a racer, that may mean new rings, bearings, maybe valve springs and a touch-up on the valves, with no expected loss of power or reliability.

    On a low-mileage motor that's sat for years, rings/bearings/valve job could be a viable 'rebuild'.

    For a guy with a low or no budget, it's a way to extend the life of a worn motor. If you're only driving it a few thousand miles a year, that can add a lot of years.

    I've 'freshened' a few over the years, with decent results. As long as you're honest with buyers, I don't see anything wrong with it. Just helped my oldest kid 'freshen' the stock motor in his CJ3A. Had been supposedly rebuilt (but in reality it had been 'freshened' with rings/bearings but they reinstalled a damaged piston and didn't clean up the ridge good enough, which boogered another...) but not well, replaced two pistons, honed it, and new rings. Cylinder taper was close to the max allowable, but his budget couldn't afford more; he had issues coming up with the $200 it cost as it was. Ran much better/quieter after....
     
  16. Texas Drifter
    Joined: Oct 8, 2016
    Posts: 63

    Texas Drifter

    This has been interesting! Back in my day, when OHV engines were expensive and we were regulated to flatties and in-liners, if it smoked but didn't rattle, it was a re-ring and valve job. When it was time for a re-build in my coupe, I ran the numbers locally and just went with a crate engine. Cheaper in the long run and way quicker! Sold the old engine and put that cash towards other goodies.
     
  17. evintho
    Joined: May 28, 2007
    Posts: 2,363

    evintho
    Member

    I was always under the impression that if you just slapped new rings on the pistons they'd never seat properly without boring the cylinders, which would require oversized pistons. On a high mileage motor I would expect the cylinders to be somewhat out of round. Could you use a ball hone to just knock off the glaze and expect the motor to last a couple thousand more miles without too much blowby or loss of power?

    I'm asking because my next project will be a cruiser '54 Customline with a high mileage 302/AOD combo. I don't wanna dump a ton of money into this beast but I want something that I can make Friday cruise night in and also take an occasional 200 mile trip.
     
  18. It was a way to tighten up the pistons in the bore. I am also thinking that it helps retain a little more oil on the lower piston with the knurling, which can actually be a good thing to minimize scuffing. But I agree that it seems to be a lost art method anymore. Now the parts are so much less cost (relative) than in the past, so new pistons are the typical solution rather than modify the old pistons.
     
  19. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 55,934

    squirrel
    Member

    You can indeed do that, and it will last more than a few thousand miles. The amount of taper in the bore kind of determines how long it will last--the more taper, the more the rings move around as they expand and contract going down and up the bore.

    I'd expect an engine with 5 thousandths or less taper to last 30-50k miles, more taper than that, and the lifetime goes down. But even with 15 or so, you should be able to get 10-20k miles out of it.

    The bores usually don't get much out of round, they just wear near the top of the bore. The rings get a lot of pressure behind them near the top, during the power stroke, and this added pressure pushes the rings against the bore, and causes more wear.

    you might also notice that the bores at the ends of the block, especially where the water pump passages are, get more wear then the rest of the bores. Something about being cooler, makes them wear faster.
     
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  20. rudestude
    Joined: Mar 23, 2016
    Posts: 3,048

    rudestude
    Member

    I actually witnessed the Ajax thing ...and it worked....years back a shop I was working at bought a early 60's Mercury Comet 4dr. 260 V-8 auto very low miles,under 40.000 original miles, from a estate sale old lady bought it new in town to and from the local stores the only time it saw open hiway was once a month to go to sisters about 30 miles down the hiway and back car ran great but had a little blow by and just little blue smoke out the tail! pipe...the owner of the shop son come by one day told me to bring the merc into the shop and go across the block to the individual supply house and get a can of industrial cleanser , Comet/Ajax, I did got back he had the car sitting there running I handed him the stuff he pulled the air clean off dumped a pile of the cleaner in his hand opened the throttle up to a good rev and threw that hand full of stuff right down the carburetor...the car coughed and snorted and blew a bunch of crap out the tail pipe he idled it down then gave it a couple quick snaps of the throttle and the second one poof ...he threw another handful of cleaner down the carb something happened...everything cleared idled the car a few minutes shut if off let it sit a few minutes then fired it up .....no more blow by and no more smoke out the tail pipe...the next day we drained the oil put some diesel fuel in with some oil ,with new filter, ran it a little bit in the shop drained it put on new filter filled with fresh oil run it around town a little then changed the oil again and it was good to go.......little car ran out great....

    Sent from my QTASUN1 using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  21. Vimtage Iron
    Joined: Feb 28, 2010
    Posts: 561

    Vimtage Iron
    Member

    Here is what happened to me recently, flat head six Dodge Army Command car, had a burnt valve for a couple years, we just run it for shows,load it on the lowbed to move it,ran good even with the burnt valve,good oil pressure, 40/50 pounds, water ran 160/170 the owner has been after me to fix the burnt valve, I held off till now,knowing something else would go haywire,sure enough # six had the burnt valve # 0ne had electrolysis from the inside out,hone job not going to cut it here,need to sleeve,pull the engine and on these its a bitch,Dodge didn't think this one out very good, get it to machine shop,# three has .015 taper,rods and mains not pretty,crank needs to be turned,mind you it had good oil pressure but this stuff was poor, block was pretty plugged up with crud and crap, I spent about two hrs with an Aladdin steam cleaner blowing crap out of it and it had been tanked a couple times, the water tube behind the water pump was shot also, and now it looks like we may need to sleeve # three, so just a valve job to freshen this one up went out the window damm quick.
     
  22. Johnny Gee
    Joined: Dec 3, 2009
    Posts: 12,602

    Johnny Gee
    Member
    from Downey, Ca

  23. Kan Kustom
    Joined: Jul 20, 2009
    Posts: 2,739

    Kan Kustom
    Member

    I can't add any more to this but I really enjoy reading the diversity of everyone's ideas and experiences. Where else but here?
     
    czuch likes this.
  24. What Squirrel said above in response the evintho rings true. Taper, and roundness will determine how long the re-ringing will last. The other thing I ran into with the older 302's, was cracked skirts on the pistons. So, check those as well when you decide to pull it apart.
     
  25. BigDogSS
    Joined: Jan 8, 2009
    Posts: 979

    BigDogSS
    Member
    from SoCal

    My machine shop / engine builder told me he would not do any kind of "refresh" on an engine. He has to stand behind his work and cannot guarantee old parts and unknown machine work, so he won't do it. Full rebuild was the only way to go.
    And this dude is old school and been around for MANY years when others have gone out of business. He does everything --> common rebuilds, one-off exotics, machine work for racing engine builders, marine engine, even the engines that power the parking lot trams at Disneyland.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
    czuch likes this.
  26. old sparks
    Joined: Mar 12, 2012
    Posts: 414

    old sparks
    Member

    150 on a small block chevy. run it till it blows then buy a complete long block. an elcheapo freshening aint gonna cut it. it will cost you at least 1500 to make it right. crank turned, rods rehabbed, bored , new pistons,cam and lifters,1000 bucks in the heads, plus machine work. just rings and bearings wont be enough
     
  27. In 1964, I took apart the '53 Willys Aero Ace F-head six in the backyard, roughing up the cylinders with sandpaper, lapping the valves, installing standard bearing shells (checking them with Plastigauge) and new .010 oversize rings, new timing chain, points, plugs and gaskets. My dad called it an overhaul. It ran quite well after that.
     
  28. Only if you de-grease it first;)
     
  29. ClOckwOrk444
    Joined: Jun 15, 2017
    Posts: 46

    ClOckwOrk444
    Member

    squirrel is dead on, per the usual. My opinion is if you are going to take it apart, bring it to the right person and get it all redone. Most machinists will turn you away for just a hone and "refresh" due to the cylinder wear (bore taper). I wouldn't take anything apart unless you are planning on re-doing it properly. And as far as mileage goes, etc. That means nothing. It's either within spec, or it isnt. An engine with 5k miles might show more wear than an engine with 250k miles, due to a plethora of variables. I'm no engine pro but i was just quoted 1700$ plus machine work (this is a dynoed cost also) to build my 351w roller engine. The builder (a known trusted guy in MN) said not to bother refreshing it since it will need machine work regardless, might as well build it to what i want it to be. The cost is high in it's completion even if the parts are relatively cheap. Guys that are good at this kind of stuff can do it in their garage, no doubt. But i wouldnt want to build my own engine, not just yet. Even considering i have race sleds that i rebuild regularly.
     
  30. fortynut
    Joined: Jul 16, 2008
    Posts: 1,038

    fortynut
    Member

    Atwater Mike.has not chimed in. I have been impressed with the breadth of his knowledge and experience. I won't dig it out of my notes but his instructions on how to be determine if you still have enough meat inside the cylinder is worth saving by those who pose the question, "$hould I hone it, or bore it and replace the pistons?" I'll check back in to see if he is willing to share it again, or is out somewhere having an adventure in one of his Rods. Later Gators.
     
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