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Technical 1933 DODGE T-5 SWAP HELP IF YA CAN.

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Sactownog, Sep 13, 2018.

  1. Sactownog
    Joined: Jan 19, 2018
    Posts: 248

    Sactownog
    Member
    from SAN DIEGO

    Good afternoon fellas,I need a bit of help.



    I have a 1933 Dodge DP six 4 door sedan with a 1953 Dodge Flat Head 6 that currently has a 3 speed manual transmission.



    what I am wanting to do is swap out the transmission for a 1983-1987 Chevy S-10 6cyl 3 speed transmission with O/D.



    I am a bit confused on the process, I have read articles and other posts on this, but my issue is going to be the process involving the bell housing/clutch/flywheel... I can pretty much fabricate any transmission cross member mounts and do much of the fabrication work my self, however I am not sure what parts I need exactly to get the process started.



    I am considering taking out the engine for full rebuild and then doing the transmission swap, but if I can do the transmission swap without taking the engine out, that would be my 1st go to as the engine runs great now with minimal leaks.
     
  2. Bearcat_V8
    Joined: Sep 21, 2011
    Posts: 386

    Bearcat_V8
    Member
    from Dexter, MI

    There is a thread about transmission swaps somewhere on the HAMB, it contained some good info and pictures. I typed up what I knew of the subject but never posted it to that thread. What I wrote is below:

    I have done this in the distant past when I worked as a fabricator, but I did it as part of a team, so I didn’t know all the details at the time. Since then, I have done considerable research into this to fill the gaps in my knowledge. Still, I am no expert at this by any means. I am just trying to condense this down to some basic methodology that is easy to understand.
    First, you should ask yourself a couple of questions.
    First, do you want a manual or automatic transmission. For ease of discussion, I will only talk about manual transmissions.
    Second question: Will I use the bell housing that came with the motor or the one that came with the transmission. For a motor, such as a Studebaker six or the Packard str8 above, that has a plate at the back of the motor to mount the bell housing, it may be preferable to adapt the transmission with its own bell. This is also how an automatic trans would be installed. However, to keep this discussion simple, I will concentrate my explanation to the trans to bell adapter install.
    There are a few things that need to be worked out before you cut metal.
    1. The actual adaptor plate.
    2. Crankshaft pilot bushing or bearing.
    3. Clutch throw-out bearing.
    4. Clutch disc and pressure plate.
    4. Driveshaft.

    Trans to bell adaptor plate: First you need to work out the thickness of your plate. This requires measuring the input shafts of both the trans you are removing and the trans you are installing. If you do not have the original trans for your motor, then you have extra figuring to do. You also need to take into consideration, the length of the splines on the input shaft. You must ensure that when the clutch disc is mounted to the flywheel, you have adequate spline engagement, but also that there is enough free spline for the cultch disc to move freely when the pressure plate is dis-engaged. If there is not enough spline engagement for the disc, your plate needs to be thinner. If the disc bottoms on the end of the splines, there won’t be enough room for the disc to move, and hence dis-engage, your plate needs to be thicker. A basic sectional lay-out drawing of all the parts and their measurements is MANDITORY at this point. Pencil is fine, no CAD computer is required.

    Pilot bushing: chances are that the new and old transmissions don’t have the same pilot diameter. Another issue is input shaft length. Sometimes, when you set your plate thickness to get the clutch right, the input shaft will not reach the end of the crank or will simply not have enough pilot engagement. This would require an extended pilot bushing, probably with a shoulder to give it extra support. Some people make the shoulder the same size as the inner diameter of the flywheel for even more support.

    Clutch throw-out bearing. Most modern transmissions generally to have a smaller diameter collar on the front bearing retainer than older transmissions. Here we have a choice, we can sleeve the OD of the retainer collar or we can sleeve the ID of the bearing itself. If the retainer is bigger than the bearing, then you either need to turn down the retainer (if possible) or get a new bearing. Also you need to make sure the collar on the retainer is long enough for the full stroke of the throw-out bearing when the clutch is dis-engaged. Otherwise it may come off the end of the collar and jam.


    Clutch plate and disc. If all of your measuring and figuring was correct, then the motor gets assembled with the pressure plate that fits the flywheel and the disc that fits the trans input shaft. Bolt it up and see if everything rotates freely. There is one more consideration here. This was brought to my attention by my clutch rebuilder. A clutch pressure plate is set up with a specific opening height. That is the distance the clutch lifts its friction surface away from the disc and flywheel. If your disc is thicker than the opening height of the pressure plate, your clutch will not dis-engage. Talk to your local clutch rebuilder for more info.

    Driveshaft: there are plenty of threads here on the HAMB on cutting and fitting a driveshaft. I won’t go into details here.
    Hope that helps
     
  3. proartguy
    Joined: Apr 13, 2009
    Posts: 658

    proartguy
    Member
    from Sparks, NV


  4. Bearcat_V8
    Joined: Sep 21, 2011
    Posts: 386

    Bearcat_V8
    Member
    from Dexter, MI

  5. Inline
    Joined: May 13, 2005
    Posts: 261

    Inline
    Member
    from Ohio

    Scatownog, I have done this swap a couple of times and wanted to clear a few things up. I actually think we talked on the phone a while back. Since then I have worked on an adapter for a '34 plymouth sedan and a '33 dodge truck. You seem like a fairly handy guy so if you are going to make an adapter, here are some things that I encountered working on this swap.

    To use the T5 behind these engines, there are some issues that you have to over come. First off, the S-10 T5 input shaft is shorter than the original input shaft. Also, the original release bearing has a very small ID that will not fit over the T5 bearing retainer snout. This is complicated by the fact that dodge used a clutch shaft and not a fork to actuate the release bearing on the early engines.

    Really, there are two ways to approach making an adapter. You can use the original bellhousing or you can adapt a GM bellhousing to the engine. I first started out trying to adapt a GM bellhousing to the dodge engine but ran into some serious clearance issues with the flywheel and the starter. The Dodge flywheel is very large and the GM bellhousing does not clear. I tried using a Big Block Ford bellhousing which cleared the flywheel and made the starter doable but it still needed an adapter for the T5 which took up too much room.

    I all actuality, adapting to the original bellhousing was much easier. Dodge used the same bolt pattern from the early 30's all the way up to when they switched to the hydrodrive. Since the T5 input shaft is shorter than the original, the pilot bearing has to be extended out of the rear of the crank. Also, I found that I had to get a clutch disc specially built that extended the hub toward the transmission. As for the release bearing, I modify a readily available release bearing to fit the T5 bearing retainer. It has the clips on it to fit into the stock fork used in '46 and newer cars. For the earlier cars with the clutch shaft, like yours, I had to do some additional modifications to get it to fit the fork but it is certainly do able.

    It is important to note that on the later cars, the lower bolts of the T5 are very close to the stock engine mounts that are underneath the bellhousing. These usually have to be moved outward. On your car, the rear of the motor actually hangs from a cross member above the bellhousing. There is some minor trimming that needs to happen to get it all to fit but it is not serious.

    Here is the stock transmission...
    20170515_174232.jpg

    The T5 bearing retainer snout is 1-3/8" diameter. The original release bearing is around 1-1/4" diameter. Also the ears on the fork are very close together.
    20170515_174209.jpg

    You can see the fork on the clutch shaft...
    20170515_174141.jpg

    Here is a pic of the adapter I built...I actually made it with the GM and Ford T5 bolt patterns since I like using the '93-'95 S-10 T5's with the Ford bolt pattern. The release bearing in this picture still has the clips for the clutch fork. On your car, those would not be there and the ears would have to be machined to fit the clutch shaft.
    20180604_213123.jpg

    If you get into making and an adapter, feel free to hit me up with questions.

    Dave
     
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  6. Sactownog
    Joined: Jan 19, 2018
    Posts: 248

    Sactownog
    Member
    from SAN DIEGO

    I PLAN TO BUY YOUR ADAPTER PLATE since you supply most of what is needed. I will need to find out where to get the clutch made if you have that info I would like that.
    I plan to tackle this very soon, we did talk in January when I got the car, I was looking at all my options, and so far I have decided that I want the transmission done. I plan to rent this car out for weddings (me as driver) and drive all around San Diego, CA. after this last weekend driving 55-60MPH down to San Diego I realize I for sure need the upgraded transmission/driveline and maybe rear end swap. It just makes sense. so I will be in touch and greatly appreciate all the help and info you provided, it made a lot of what I have been researching come together.
     
    Bearcat_V8 likes this.
  7. Sactownog
    Joined: Jan 19, 2018
    Posts: 248

    Sactownog
    Member
    from SAN DIEGO

    I am having issues finding the 82-88 s-10 5 speed T-5 Transmission. can you give me a bit more specifics on finding this transmission. is there a new one that will work as opposed to finding one from a wrecking yard or someone who rebuilt one?
     
  8. raff23089
    Joined: May 15, 2010
    Posts: 70

    raff23089
    Member

    I put a T-5 from an S-10 behind the 218 flathead in my 50 Plymouth about 6 years ago. I did a bunch of online research and ultimately stumbled on this site.
    http://www.1935plymouth.com/
    http://www.mcmoff.com/russplymouthnardi/t5.html

    After a few emails I sent him some money and the parts arrived soon after. I'm a guy with limited tools tools, skills and knowledge but everything worked out as described and I've had no issues in the years since. The only issue I recall was the throwout bearing retainer on the T-5 i bought was scored and rusty. I took that and the bearing to a machine shop and he took a little off both parts and they've been trouble free. After the installation I found the car to be a better driver. I think I have some some pics of my install and will post a few if you like.
     
    Sactownog likes this.
  9. Sactownog
    Joined: Jan 19, 2018
    Posts: 248

    Sactownog
    Member
    from SAN DIEGO

    can you tell me what Transmission you used? I am in search of a 82-88 S-10 5speed. I have been kicking around the idea of an automatic, but think I will keep it manual for stock looking reasons.

    also, how did you set up your e-brake?
     
  10. raff23089
    Joined: May 15, 2010
    Posts: 70

    raff23089
    Member

    I used a mid 80’s T5 from an S10 truck. Paid $75 for it, installed it and hoped for the best. Still running strong years later. No e-brake for the first while. I just put a rear end from a 97 Cherokee in recently so I’m going to try to use the original e-brake handle with some aftermarket cables.
     
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  11. Sactownog
    Joined: Jan 19, 2018
    Posts: 248

    Sactownog
    Member
    from SAN DIEGO

    What gears are in the 97 Cherokee rear end?
    did you have to have it narrowed or did it fit right in?
    How does it drive?
    what speed are you able to cruise at down the freeway?
     
  12. Sactownog
    Joined: Jan 19, 2018
    Posts: 248

    Sactownog
    Member
    from SAN DIEGO

    found this, not sure if it is an 87 t5 from an s-10, the owner says it is, but does not have part number or cant find it. can anyone validate this? 20180927_184833001_1538099898106.jpeg 20180927_192258001_1538101656676.jpeg 20180927_192308001_1538101668454.jpeg 20180927_192324001_1538101685119.jpeg 20180927_192351001_1538101637145.jpeg 20180927_192405001_1538101629171.jpeg 20180927_192413001_1538101617081.jpeg Tranny.jpeg
     
  13. Inline
    Joined: May 13, 2005
    Posts: 261

    Inline
    Member
    from Ohio

    The number that you are interested in is the "1352-145" '85-'86 2.8 V6 S-10. I have used a bunch of these. They have the 3.78:1 1st and 0.72:1 overdrive. That's a good candidate, plus it has the mechanical speedo.

    You should be able to leave your stock rear end in the car and use a u-joint companion flange from a fox body mustang.
     
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  14. raff23089
    Joined: May 15, 2010
    Posts: 70

    raff23089
    Member

    The Cherokee rear has 3.08 gears. Other than welding on some perches it’s an easy swap. I cut the old perches off the original rear and used them. I had a new driveshaft made up. I told the shop what trans and rear I was using and how long it needed to be and he made it up the next day. It is about one inch wider than the original rear. I have 235 tires on 7 inch Mopar cop wheels on the back and they just brush the fender lip on fast corners. It’s definitely no drag racer but it when it gets up to speed it’ll cruise on the highway at 70 mph spinning about 2000rpm.
     
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  15. Sactownog
    Joined: Jan 19, 2018
    Posts: 248

    Sactownog
    Member
    from SAN DIEGO

    This is all great info and I will be updating when I get the new transmission. I am still on the hunt for the tranny, and the rear end going to be a 97 cherokee as my family owns www.jwjeep.com so I can get my rear end from the yard.
     
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  16. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 23,264

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Manual Cherokees are 3.08:1

    Automatic Cherokees are 3.55.1

    4-Cylinder Cherokees are 4.10:1

    Explorers are 3.08, 3.55, 3.73, or 4.10:1
     
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  17. classiccarjack
    Joined: Jun 30, 2009
    Posts: 1,465

    classiccarjack
    Member

  18. classiccarjack
    Joined: Jun 30, 2009
    Posts: 1,465

    classiccarjack
    Member

    Look this link up...

    The Montana Boys are building a bad ass 1933 using a 230 and a T5. Not my favorite transmission, but hey, this is right up your alley!

    Sent from my Moto Z (2) using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  19. Sactownog
    Joined: Jan 19, 2018
    Posts: 248

    Sactownog
    Member
    from SAN DIEGO

    VERY HELPFUL, THANK YOU.
     
  20. Sactownog
    Joined: Jan 19, 2018
    Posts: 248

    Sactownog
    Member
    from SAN DIEGO

    wondering what rear gears are best for the flat head 6 230ci with 3 spd tranny?
     
  21. harpo1313
    Joined: Jan 4, 2008
    Posts: 2,584

    harpo1313
    Member
    from wareham,ma

    Five spd will improve your driving experience a ton over a 3spd , that low first will get her started off ever so nicely [as in engine wear and strain] the od will be nice, but keep the brake system in mind as to what it can and cant do.
     
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  22. Sactownog
    Joined: Jan 19, 2018
    Posts: 248

    Sactownog
    Member
    from SAN DIEGO

    I get that an OD will be a better more in depth mod to do, but was hopeful that the rear end swap would be the easier way to get better highway mileage. thoughts?
     
  23. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,222

    F&J
    Member

    Complex question. Where will the car get used mostly?

    A low power engine with your 4.30? rear and a 5 speed that has a 1:1 in 4th gear, if you are on the highway and hit a long grinding hill, you could run out of power and need to downshift because you are losing speed. Then in 4th, you are back to how the car revved way too high with the stock rear at say 55MPH. So you are still not keeping up with traffic.

    I don't know what overdrive ratio you were looking at with a 5 speed, but if it made your final road ratio down to 2.80 for example, then you most likely will run out of power on those highway hills, (if you had highway hills like that in your area).

    You have the later 230 which can handle a 3:55 rear end, as that is a very common gear swap on 230 powered 1940s Dodge 3 speed pickups in my area.
     
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  24. Sactownog
    Joined: Jan 19, 2018
    Posts: 248

    Sactownog
    Member
    from SAN DIEGO

    you are saying the gear swap was common on the 230 powered 1940's dodge 3 speeds. do you mean the gear swap in the rear end or in the transmission?
     
  25. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,222

    F&J
    Member

    It is done with the swapping of a later Mopar differential center section. It is a bolt in swap on those trucks, and has been done for decades. I doubt it would fit a 33 rear axle housing. (I know it did not fit my former 32 Plymouth housing when I tried decades ago).

    There is a 47 pickup near here with that 3;55 swap. I have been in it on back roads, also state roads which average 50-55, and once on the highway. He stayed in the slow lane, as the fast lane runs 65-75. We might have been running 60-perhaps 65. It's a noisy, drafty old survivor truck, so I'd have to say it's not a 70 MPH cruiser with a 230 flat 6.

    If he went to a lower number ratio, I think the truck would not be as good on the back roads and state roads that have hills. All I am saying is that there are always compromises with a small HP engine and todays differing driving speeds & also tailgaters.

    If it was me, and if that Cherokee 3.50 axle fits OK, I'd do that, compared to a complicated trans swap. But, my roads and my preferences in driving speeds are likely different than yours.
     

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