Projects '23 Model T Gow Job - AKA: Sand Creek Special

Cactus, that pic was worth a billion words. That was exactly what I was doing for the frame front end, and from my research had appeared to be fairly accurate. I am glade you posted that.

After sleeping on it, and seeing that pic this morning, I am keeping the frame mod the way I have it.

Thank You

 

the main difference of course being that this is a flattened original '30's ford crossmember ...see the "bow tie" shape? the straight piece won't look traditional because it obviously wasn't done that way in the '40's ...the other aspect of the wider flanges is they provided some lateral strength... the T and A frames weren't built with any x bracing so very easy to collapse (diamond) they were also riveted so they were designed to flex alot if that modern steel is what I think it is the welds and the hole in the center will be taking alot of torque stress... '30's steel was 10x better

 

Dang it, didn't catch the top shape of the front crossmember. Oh nuts. I'll ponder on this some more I guess.

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Just a question...you say that you like your single u-bolt front spring mount pad and talk about using a hand crank and looking at the picture of your front set up ... am I not seeing something right or is there more to the mount that is not pictured also I have never seen a model -T mount with only one u-bolt and if it did only have one bolt where was the crank hole....the picture that I posted is mine and it's s 1916 t frame that I flipped the front cross member over and the crank hole will even line up with the center line of the Volvo engine that I'm installing....just curious...

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Rudestude, the later T's used a front engine mount with only two studs holding the spring plate on (essentially a single u-bolt with the engine mount built in). I still need to use the stock mount to month the T engine also.

Your using the earlier (pre- 1921) front mount that used two u-bolts to hold it on.

Where the raised crossmemberb is now, I just used the single u-bolt and the corresponding later stock T spring plate to mount the spring.

The raised cross member and spring are currently high enough to clear the hand crank after I extend it about 4".

Picture of the stock later mount.





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Wow.... I guess I have never seen one like that...my t stuff I have is early stuff and my 27 t was...well the only original t parts it had was the body and top ... thanks for the info....and keep it going I'm following this one....

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So how about this, And I think it was suggested I believe somewhere back. I splice in the Model A front rails horns, and I bought a So-Cal flattened crossmember for half price.

I may still try to flatten it more to lower it some more, as it would actually raise my chassis height from where I have things now. I figured the So-Cal piece would save me a little time over the stock piece. I really would like to get it flat as I have it now. I will do some searching on here to see if I can find some pics and ideas.

Also, would it look odd if I put the top lip of the crossmember on top of the frame rails vs. underneath the framerail lip? Just trying to keep the front as low as I can.

 

Here's some cars I saw online.....

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OK, got home, made some quick measurements and squared my lines and wacked the excess rail off the A front end. Do you like it better over all? Do you think it looks more Late 30's period correct?

So this is what I have setting the A crossmember in the same place as the one I made. I have been pondering on this all day on how to make the cuts and attach these rails to the T frame. So how would you go about this?

 

In conjunction to my above questions, I was almost think something like this and make a cap to close in the back on the top of the A rail to deal with the frame difference. Or probably better yet, taper the top rail downward back into the T frame. But shoot me your thoughts before I break out the cut off wheel and welder.

The only requirement is I need to keep the stock T crossmember to support the front of the engine AND keep it late 30's period looks.

 

This is going be fun, I've wanted to do this for years but never got to it.

 

View attachment 4044813

 

Ar you saying leave it stacked like that? Almost like Z-ing the frame?

 

Yes ....cut 45's out of the sides of the A rails then bend down the top of the rails, weld T top of rail to A bottom on both sides then box the inside and weld a diamond fishplate onto that... cut out the "saddle" part of the A crossmember if it has it
*Clayton's frame horns are cast front spring eyes from an x brand frame

 

Huh, not sure how I feel about that. But I highly doubt they would have boxed the inside in back then...but what do I know. It has an interesting look though.

The big pain with all that is mounting the T radiator in the stock spot so I can use the stock hood top section.

That's why I figured just essentially "extending" the frame with the A rails. Cut off what I previously added (red box) , cut ot a box section on the A rails (orange box) and lay the A rails in front and on top of the T frame--basically extending it.

Also, that may drop the front too much and the T oil pan sump area would drag on the ground. As it was, I set it up to have approx 4" maybe 5" clearance on the drain plug.

Just bouncing off what is running in my head here.

 

Ya know, I just went out in the dark and rain and looked again via cell phone light, LOL. But I think by doing what your proposing, and keeping with the stock crossmember, it actually puts the spring in the same vicinity of where it is now. Interesting.

It appears the where the spring sits in the crossmember, that area on the crossmember is near even with the bottom of the A framerails---which puts me right where I need to be, as the spring currently is at the top of the same plane of the T frame rails. The only obvious thing I would have to do here is narrow up the stock A crossmember to fit the narrower width of the T's frame width dimensions.

So what the heck do I do in mounting the radiator. The first thing that pops in my mind is notch the top lip of the A framerail to clear the radiator grill shell sides. It would require a notch about half the width of the rail.

Interesting. I can almost picture the young lad in the 30's bolting the two framerail sections together to achieve this. Of course I would weld it and add the bolts for looks. Hmmm......

Cleaned it up a little....

 

Just my opinion ...but if I was going to do something with them frame horns I would section them to make them thinner to match the t rails , when I z'd my rails in the rear I used a section from another t frame and used it for my step and it blends right in with the rest of the rail ....myself I would just leave it ..with the shell in place it would look fine..or a small nerf bumper with your initials formed in it like they did in the day on the old dirt cars...bottom line is its your car do what you like....

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I like it! I was going to do the flipped stock crossmbr on my T but now that I see this i'm going this way....I have all the stuff except one frame horn

 

Im not sure if I want to stack those front framerails. Its been eating at me. I do like the look of the front frame horns, and like the idea of a more Ford-ish looking front crossmember though. Thinking maybe I'll just splice the rails together like I originally showed. I was hoping to get more opinions on this. Lots of views in the thread, but not as many thoughts from others as I would have figured.

Rudestude, I actually did my rear frame in a similar fashion. I cut off the rear, pie cut the rail and folded it and rewelded. Then I welded the modified section back onto the frame. Very similar to what you did.

Here is a pic of the rear crossmember in progress when i was doing it.




This is kind of what I was thinking with the front of the frame. Thoughts?

 

Well, lets see what I can come up with. I admit, this might not be totally 30's looking, but lets see where it goes I guess. Hey, its got to look more period than my mistake of a modern crossmember, right?

Tonight I liberated the rail stubs from the crossmember. I marked the center leaf spring pin hole across both rails for a reference mark. The rails were not rivited, but bolted---well, at least what was left of them. Still, I used the cut off wheel, made a cross in the heads of the bolts and air chisled them off.

 

It's all good....diving in to the uncertain side can only make you stronger ......or crazy .... I have found that crazy really isn't that bad.......and chances are the guy's that were around in the 30's wouldn't remember the difference any ways...... I kid...
My T project is probably going to get a change in my thoughts of a body ...my brother just give me the complete touring body that was original to the chassis that I started with and a turtle deck..... Im thinking front half of the touring with the turtle deck and narrow it so I still have the single seater thing going.... something that I have always wanted to do is a fenderless T- tub with a turtle deck and the wheel base stretched by having the rear end positioned slightly back from where the deck and body meet and sitting low.....
Anyways carry on ...still following...

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You said the spring perches were Model T and the spring and axle are A parts. I was looking at the shackle angle with no weight and they look pretty low. I don't have any T perches to compare, but I assume that the T perches must be offset more than a later Ford perch pin, right? I know you're still working on the frame, but you may need to check that out as well.

 

Almost.

The perches and spring are Model T.

The axle and spindles and such are Model A.

The shackle angle is alright, the spring is new and pretty stiff. I had my 250+ friend on the front cross member and hopping on it and there is gobs of room in the swing.

Why did I choose that combo of parts? I had all T parts, but the A stuff kinda fell in my lap. I like different, so I decided to use the A axle and steering as it is significantly better than a stock T stuff.

The T perches on the pin are the same as the A, but require a 1/4 spacer so you can properly get a T radius rod to tighten.

I had accumulated alot of parts with my two stock(ish) T's. While they are fun, I do like "hot rods", thus the reason for this build, so I can use up more parts.... And buy more, lol.

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Well, some may love it, others will hate it. I like it, and I guess thats all that matters. It may not be as 30's themed as it should be, but its almost done. I "fixed" my front crossmember to hopefully make it more correct looking.. After doing alot of planning, holding parts up to get visuals and measuring, it became quite apparent that modifying a true stock A crossmember was going to be a ton of work and still may not produce the result I wanted.

So what to do. After some more thought, it came to me. Fake it. So I got some more of the same 2"x2"x3/16" box tubing and cut out some triangle wedges. I used my stock A crossmember for reference measurements and made it so it appears to be similar to a flattened A crossmember. Then I cut the frame horns in the appropriate spot and welded them on.

Another decision that made me do this was the A frame rails further back were full of cracks around the crossmember. With the overall condition of them not great (there was some heavy pitting in spots from being outdoors for 80+ years), I determined it was better to save part of it, than none of it.

 

And there you go .....all that thinking , over thinking , and concern of what other people are going to think of what you do makes you a bit crazy ,...not to mention the time you lost doing so.....well you went and got r done up with something that you are happy with and thats all that really counts....if you like it and it's safe then ...good job...now what's next?


Oh ya good job ...looks great....

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Stude, no time lost, trust me. This is a seriously back burner project that is over a year going already. I am basically out of garage room, so this work happens when I can move my big block truck outside when it's not raining and move the T frame inside....thus why there are alot of outside pics on my trailer. Hopefully when I am done with this, I'll have a small shed built this Gow Job and my T-doodlebug can live in.

As far as making me nuts, haha, yeah, sometimes I sweat the small details. I posted this here though because I wanted the collective opinions of the group---before I built it all and made drastic mistakes--then had to go back and redo it. Trying to get this right the first time. Trying to maintain that 30's look for the most part--there will be some liberties taken though.

As much as a pain it was, I am VERY glad it was pointed out to me on the front end. I am super stoked on the looks now and how it came out. It looks fantastic in my opinion. So much so, I am now considering spending a little more and getting the whole chassis blasted and maybe a little better paint work than initially planned. I texted pics to a couple buddies and they were floored at the transformation. Even though it literally took me almost all day to do it, it was definitely worth it.

Today's plan is to work on the steering mounting and such.

 

I very much like the new look of your front crossmember setup. I think it's a big improvement from the original concept, it looks the part. The bowtie shape looks more like the period racer picture posted earlier and I just like the look of the frame horns.

You can always throw the old A crossmember on a shelf for a future project, it's a good piece, even if this car doesn't need it.

 

OK, not sure how much more progress there will be after today. We had a great weekend of weather. Everytime I want to drag this in the garage, I have to leave my big block truck outside. So its a pain to work on in that respect. And I just have so much else to do. I will however try to pick at little things to work on. And come colder winter weather, I'll work on the body, rewooding the frame of it in the basement.

So today I finished up the steering box/column mount It was another piece that tried my patience. It required the bracket to be offset a little on the frame to get the column to line up, something I didn't realize the first time around. So I cut the side bracket back off, repositioned it all as needed and buzzed it back on. Then I built a reinforcing strip to go around the perimeter. Its super solid, the only flex is now in the frame. I also shortened the steering arm and welded on a new ball to replace the worn out one. No sense buying a cheap repop short arm already done when we have nice original parts here.





I should back up a bit also. Before I welded the reinforcing strip on the steering box mount, I decided I had to see where the firewall would sit in relation to the column. I did the typically done mod, which cuts a slot in the firewall so it can be slid around the column. Well to my surprise, and totally unplanned, the column passed right through the original hole in the the firewall. I had mocked up the column to fit me in the car, not to fit the firewall. But it all worked out great.

 

Looking good.

 

Looking real good ...you pulled it off with the cross member... I like it...getting excited about going back to work on mine..but I just ordered a bunch of parts for my 50 Studebaker Champion build and they started arriving so it's time to work on it for awhile and follow your build....

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