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Technical Block boring & boring bar?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Old wolf, Sep 11, 2018.

  1. Ok today I went to help a friend cut the ring groove from a 350 chevy block and hone the cyls. And it needed to be bored oversize. No machine shop here does that. So we went to Doniphan Mo. The machinist at the NAPA store wanted $550 to re bore the block? I sold the guy a good running engine for $550 exchange. Now my question Im thinking about buying a boring bar and practicing on some scrap engine blocks & learn how to use it. What brand should I look for. I don't want any new imported junk. I am wanting a old made in the USA one. and whats a fair price. and any other advice will be welcome.
     
    chryslerfan55 likes this.
  2. If you want to do really good work, you will need a Rottler or Sunnen that is the kind that has an L shaped base and the bar mounts on top. The older block mounts are just so so. The real key to this is the honing. You will not get good round cylinders with a hand hone. The reason nobody does this anymore is crate engines. I know that there may be a storm after this. Do you want to be the best or mediocre? You can buy used equipment from shops that have gone out of business. You will find out why they went out of business after a while.
     
  3. 41rodderz
    Joined: Sep 27, 2010
    Posts: 6,540

    41rodderz
    Member
    from Oregon

    Boring bars used to be the norm. Plenty of roundy rounds and straight line racers as well as on the street cars. Just do a google search on the best bars from the 50s, 60s, 70s era .
     
  4. Yes I know about finish honing with a proper cross hatch pattern. Simply put I am just not that fussy that everything has to be perfect. In not interested on stuff like using a block plate to simulate the head being torqued on the engine and being compulsive & nit picky. Something that's simply good enough will suffice. Ive done dozens of simple Re Ring jobs on less than perfect cyls honed with a dingle berry hone that where more than satisfactory. The late Tom Mc Cawhill Wrote in popular Mechanics he used to scuff the glaze on cyl walls with 36 grit sandpaper. Stated he never had a engine that the rings failed to seat. Of course that was long before molly rings where even thought of
     
    morac41 likes this.

  5. Bill Nabors
    Joined: Jul 24, 2011
    Posts: 283

    Bill Nabors
    Member

    I just bought 3 Van Norman 777 boring bars and parts. After I was quoted $400.00 to bore 1/8” over. I will be getting rid of extras after I get one going. I have bored a bunch of HDs 40 years ago, so I am hopeful.
     
    Irish Mike and Old wolf like this.
  6. That's kinda where Im at. $550.00 to bore a block .060 to me is too pricey. Some folks simply cant afford high dollar engines that cost more than the vehicle is worth. In the same vein. Many times folks will not repair the air cond because the cost is more then they can afford or the vehicle is worth. Im not planning to open a machine shop. Just bore some blocks that are mine and possibly sell a fresh over bore block with a exchange core and let the buyer finish hone it.
     
  7. Mike_B
    Joined: May 31, 2007
    Posts: 46

    Mike_B
    Member

    Man, that price is just insane! It's been almost 4 years, but I had a shop wash, deck, bore, and power hone a 350 block, and even check the main bores for $375. I also had him balance the rotating assembly for $175. And this is a race engine shop that's backed up for weeks.
     
  8. Yes I wanted to tell the guy he was out of his gourd. sometimes folks who overcharge wonder why they don't have any customers
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2018
  9. PHIL COOPY
    Joined: Jul 20, 2016
    Posts: 409

    PHIL COOPY
    Member Emeritus

    Get a Van Norman 777...
     
  10. pappatyrone
    Joined: Oct 22, 2007
    Posts: 156

    pappatyrone
    Member

    I agree. Good choice


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  11. old gezzer
    Joined: Oct 25, 2012
    Posts: 23

    old gezzer
    Member

    I've had a boring bar or access to one for 60+ years. My personal favorite is a van norman 777. It is easy to use and the tool holders and micrometer setting tool is easy to use, Kwik Way bars are ok but the tool setting system leaves something to be desired. Rottlers are ok bars but not as common as van norman and kwik way.
    Hand honing with a real sunnen hone does a quite actable job for most engines. It takes time to become skilled enough to do a good job boring and honing cylinders.
    The most common screw up for beginners is in tool setting. The micrometer setting tool is direct reading and if you are used to regular micrometers where 1 turn is .025" where as the boring bar mic. 1 turn is .050". This leads to some spectular mistakes.
     
  12. weathrmn
    Joined: Apr 15, 2008
    Posts: 321

    weathrmn
    Member

    I have an older Van Norman boring bar accessories. I don't know the model, it's in the shop, never got around to advertise it. If your interested, contact me, I'm in Pa.
     
  13. 2OLD2FAST
    Joined: Feb 3, 2010
    Posts: 5,215

    2OLD2FAST
    Member
    from illinois

    I agree that 5 plus is high , around here it's $12 a hole , bore & hone. I don't understand why you'd think anyone would want a half-assed bore job ? Hone at home ? Not if the block has been bored , honing is how you obtain the proper size & cylinder finish , that's were the skill comes in , IMO...
     
    egads likes this.
  14. Torana68
    Joined: Jan 28, 2008
    Posts: 1,415

    Torana68
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Australia

    I’ve been tempted to do this but no spare cash just now, would like to be able to do a re-bore and line bore at home.
     
  15. TA DAD
    Joined: Mar 2, 2014
    Posts: 1,107

    TA DAD
    Member
    from NC

    Old Wolfe,
    If you are interested I have some TRW rings I would sell you at a deal.
    PM me and I will send you a list of part numbers, rings 002.JPG
     
  16. s55mercury66
    Joined: Jul 6, 2009
    Posts: 4,335

    s55mercury66
    Member
    from SW Wyoming

    A couple of friends and myself are also on the lookout for one. I have valve and seat grinding equipment already, and we have been thinking of building our own circle track motors on the cheap.
     
  17. I find that NAPA likes to drag their customers over the coals to perform services for them. I got whacked $100 to have 2 axle bearings pressed on my axles, for the press charge only.
     
  18. noboD
    Joined: Jan 29, 2004
    Posts: 8,455

    noboD
    Member

    My local NAPA did no work, they took everything to another shop. That may be why their prices are so high. A friend did most of it for the local store and he knew how to charge.
     
  19. Supposedly they were sending my axles out, and I never asked the $$ up front. Then it turns out they did it themselves. This is why my local NAPA has gotten about 1% of the parts action from my Ford project. And almost everything I bought there I had a problem with, starter solenoid, brake light switch and ignition switch.
     
  20. Thanks for all the replys. Boring bars are something I have almost Zero knowledge about. How much is a reasonable price for one? Someone asked why would someone want a fresh bore block that had not been finished honed? Lots of guys here run stock cars. with what is called a claimer engine. So they don't want to spend more than a $1000 on a engine. And they are many times assembled out of a Hodge Podge of parts.
     
    s55mercury66 likes this.
  21. old gezzer
    Joined: Oct 25, 2012
    Posts: 23

    old gezzer
    Member

    One more comment regarding cylinder hones. Most folks confuse glaze breakers with cylinder hones. They are not the same thing. Glaze breakers only rough the cylinder up so new rings will break in. Cylinder hones can increase the cylinder size and hold size to .0005". Back in the 1950's some mechanics used hones in place of a boring bar for small cylinder over sizes ie .010-.020 range.
     
  22. I learned on the Sunnen ones about 45 years ago... the guy who does my work has one. I'd look for one that you can still get parts for.
     
  23. Bill Nabors
    Joined: Jul 24, 2011
    Posts: 283

    Bill Nabors
    Member

    I understand the time involved in a large overbore. For 1/8 over, it will take 6 to 8 passes. I am semi retired and have plenty of time to watch it cut. My Van Norman 777 bars had belonged to an old time hot rodder and are taking some long needed maintenance. I paid $600.00 for three bars. I also have borrowed a plate that fits over a studded block so you don’t have to remove the studs. I like to do my own work when I can. I look forward to getting that first cut. When I get one going, I will probably sell or trade the others. They have not been made since the 70s, but are still around.
     
    48fordnut and Old wolf like this.
  24. PackardV8
    Joined: Jun 7, 2007
    Posts: 1,170

    PackardV8
    Member

    Van Norman, Rottler, KwikWay, Storm Vulcan, block-mounted boring bars all are professional equipment and will do better work than the amateur operating them. Expect to pay $750 - $1000 minimum for a fully tooled and turnkey boring bar. Anything less is luck or missing pieces or worn out. Buy a turnkey machine; trying to fill in missing pieces can be an expensive proposition.

    And yes, the Sunnen man-operated hone head will produce perfectly acceptable cylinder geometry and finish. It's an operator-killing bitch to do so; that's why everything is power-stroke today.
    [​IMG]
    Then, what about metrology? Ideally, one needs a Sunnen dial bore gauge and setting fixture; minimum of $1,000 there. Learning to read snap gauges and micrometers is an art. FWIW, I've got a Starrett inside micrometer I no longer use.

    Too bad you're not closer. We get $375 to clean, bore, hone, install cam bearings and core plugs.

    jack vines
     
    kidcampbell71 and Old wolf like this.
  25. Now that's a reasonable price. If it was me I would gather some cores. And bore them to popular oversizes & have a set of pistons and resized rods matched to them. Then when a customer came in you could sell your block. and charge a core deposit that would be refunded after you are certain that the exchange core's are good.
     
  26. What happened with my friends engine. The exhaust pipe was broke loose at the manifold. good engine bad trans. So the truck set a few years. And the engine was stuck. He pulled the heads and a mouse had crawled in the cyl thru a open exhaust valve. and it started making a nest. He had noticed mice poop in the truck. So he put out some rat poison. and that mouse died in its nest. and that one cyl needs to be bored out. probably could be bored and sleeved, but he thought why not rebore all the cyls?
     
  27. sunbeam
    Joined: Oct 22, 2010
    Posts: 6,213

    sunbeam
    Member

    I have an old Kwik way F bar That had light use because they didn't come with hold down for short cylinders. Had to make short hold down because of that it was in great shape no fast power return. $650 with tooling at a swap meet so they are out there The secret to these bars is have the deck really clean use a file to knock down any burs of imperfections
     
    Old wolf likes this.
  28. Kwik Way....but I'd be predigest.....rebuilt their line of equipment in the 80's - most due to guys taking to much a cut....weather it was boring - brake job or valves....they have a mic on the boring bars that just needs a good set of eyes to set...
     
  29. Dyce
    Joined: Sep 12, 2006
    Posts: 1,973

    Dyce
    Member

    I have an old Van Norman and have bored many blocks with it through the years. I have a sunnen hone to finish the bores. I just put the block in my solvent tank to hone. Solvent is a little thin but it works. I use several grits to get to the final size and finish. The most important thing is to keep the cylinders cool. If you keep honing to long and get to much heat the middle of the cylinders shrink. Later ford 302 blocks were the worst.

    I used to have a kwikway FN bar on a servequip fixture. It was a big bar but you could do a .125 over bore in 2 passes. It was an animal. Had a servequip hone too.
    If you are doing it for a hobby you can get by with the basics. But you will want a way to press pistons (either a rod oven or a fixture), and a camshaft bearing driver. A hot tank is also good to have, and a magnaflux crack checker.

    It really sucks getting a block done just to find a crack.

    All of this takes skills that only come with practice. The boring bar is only part of the job.
     
  30. bundoc bob
    Joined: Dec 31, 2015
    Posts: 130

    bundoc bob

    Years ago I dealt into a Kwik-Way bar. Little used, in fact had
    to shorten the hold down to bore short stroke blocks. Learning
    curve was reasonably steep, but it was a joy to use once I got
    the hang of it. Included all the stuff to re-do cutters at the
    approved angles etc. As usual, got broke and had to sell it
    to a machine shop [back when they were still around.]
     
    stillrunners likes this.

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