I’m keen to learn if 53 Cadillac spindles and drums can be used on a Ford axle. Can’t seem to find anyone having done it. I have a spare Cadillac 53 chassis and driveline and figure I might use the whole kit and caboodle on my Improved on a 32 frame. Anyone know the king pin specs?
I don’t know the king pin specs, but I suggest something you may already have thought of, just in case. When swapping spindles as you propose, be sure to consider the ‘king pin inclination’. That is the angle of the king pin as viewed from the front (camber) not the side (caster). I do know that Chevy spindles have a different angle than Ford in many cases. The result is a dramatic change in camber angle of the spindle. If the swap is otherwise desirable and doable, it is possible the axle could be bent behind the king pin bosses to the needed angle. Really somewhat similar in process to ‘dropping’ an axle. Ray
Hey Cadman, I tried it with a 1950 Cadillac spindle onto a Super Bell dropped front axle for a Ford. I can tell you I needed to sleeve the top and lower bosses to accept a Ford bush and kingpin and I adapted Ford vented disc brake rotors to it. It all looked pretty sweet on the bench and even on the axle when assembled in the vice, but when seen on the vehicle, it was a whole different story. I did post something way back on the HAMB here asking what it would drive like, but I can't be bothered searching for the replies. You may if you wish. Needless to say, I dropped the idea and used stock Ford spindles. On an early race car or speedster they may actually look trick, but not on my project. Here are a couple of pic's that I kept of it.
Hnstay nailed it with KPI. Huge difference. Cancel the order. Just for reference, Cad pins are .98" x 5.56", 48 ford are .813" x 5.5"
Hmmmm. Thanks for the prompt responses Hnatray and fiftyV8 .....Ok X38, you got any backing plates and drums in the parts pile?
......Or perhaps it’s time to gently persuade the axle. I still like the idea of Cadillac drums and rims etc cos I already have them. We’ll see.
Cadillac KPI might be the same as Chevy from that era, 4*, or Oldsmobile which was 5*. That should be easy enough to check on the bench and then look at the Super Bell axles for Chevy spindles. Chevy king pins are .859 diameter so you could either ream the k/p bosses in the axle for Cad k/p’s or turn up custom bushings to suit.
Studying the photos fiftyV8 posted, I notice the changes he made in hub/rotor for disc brakes appear to have significantly increased the scrub radius. (A line drawn through the the king pin to the ground compared to the centerline of the tire at the ground. In your case, using the Caddy spindle and brakes (and wheel backspacing) would retain whatever Caddy engineers deemed appropriate. I think that is a good thing for correct steering geometry. Changing the KPI by bending axle does not change any of the above, the king pin to spindle relation ship remains the same. You would just be correcting resulting camber effect. Ray
Ok. I’m a bit dumb. Good looking .... but dumb. Here is what I’m looking at and I’m trying to work out where the error will come from.
Okay....if you put a king pin in the Ford axle end you would see that the angle of the Ford king pin and Caddy kingpin are not the same. If you use the bottom of the photo as 'level', you can see the Caddy king pin is 'almost' straight up and down (top of king pin is actually a few degrees to the left) and the top of the Ford king pin is even more to the left....greater angle. Uncorrected, that results in significant change in camber of the wheel/tire. Ray
Years ago I met a guy who loved Cads. He used the complete spindle and drum brakes from the Cad on the early Ford axle. He also used the engine trans and rear end. He did something special with the steering box but I can't remember what. Model A frame and body. Everything else Caddy. Pretty sweet for 1963! Sent from my LG-M150 using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
Imagine a line vertically through the king pin. Now imagine a line directly along the spindle centerline. The angle the spindle centerline meets the king pin centerline is different between the Cad and the Ford. There may only be a few degrees difference and it may not look like much at spindle scale, but magnified by tyre diameter, it is considerable. The Cad spindle will be significantly different in camber compared with the Ford. Yes, you could bend the axle to compensate.
The problem comes from the 8° built into the Ford axle and only 4° (be advised that Cad may be different than Chevy that I mentioned above) king pin inclination of the spindle. The net result is negative camber. If you want to use the axle pictured it will need to be bent between the spring perch holes and the king pin bosses to correct the situation. I would use Ford king pins with custom bushings, but be sure to also check for the proper amount of room for the Ford thrust bearing that fits under the axle and above the lower yoke of the spindle. Too much room then shim above the axle, and too little then machine the king pin boss to suit. Can the axle be bent in the middle? Yes, but then you will need to also bend the wishbone so the perch bolts go back in, but if you split the wishbone that won't be necessary. That is a '42-'48 axle so if you do split the wishbone be careful when deciding where to put the brackets on the frame for the 'bones. If you spread them out too far you can run into tire interference when turning to full lock.
It can be done but that axle is going to be butt ugly when you get done bending it to get the right angle to match the Cad spindle. What you are going to need is the king pin inclination and camber for the 53 Cad Then have a shop bend the axle at the ends to get to those specs. Looking at Fifty8's post above that means tilting the end of the axle out a few degrees. If you have someone in Oz that drops axles they can do it but it will take some effort as it isn't going to match their jig . Kingpin inclination for the Ford axle is 8 degrees but I have no clue as to what it is on the Cad spindle and after a 30 minute search can't find anything on the net and don't have a manual that covers it unless 56 might be the same.
I’m getting smarter slowly. I still don’t know what the degree of camber is on Cad spindles. Think it’s the same from 40 thru 56. Ok the next thought is using Ford spindles and adapting the Cad backing plates and drums.
Ive discovered the KPI is 5.5 degrees FWIW. I reckon I can bend the axle. Or as I said earlier go ford spindles and Cadillac everything else.
Bend the axle is my thought. Not sure you would be able to easily do the Cadillac to Ford spindle adaption.
I found this article and have just about got my head around all of it. https://www.hotrod.com/articles/0902sr-science-of-straight-axles/
So I called a mate who has trucks and he told me to contact StraightWheels at Rocklea in Brisbane. Preliminary conversation with Chris is “positive” with Kpi adjustments being relatively “straightforward”. ( alignment puns intended). Apparently the heating of axles is prohibited in Australia so it has to be cold bent in a 200 ton press
when I was considering doing this with '54 Buick spindles I posed this same question I got a reply from @frisco who did it in the '60's on a T with a tube axle...maybe he'll have some insight because you cant just bend the tube axle you've already reasoned out that truck shops are your best bet for the bending
Two things here, it's hard to tell from the photo just what spindles are on that car, and F&J lives on the other side of the country from California where that car is registered. I'm wondering if F&J used Ford spindles on his car along with the adapters that allowed use '58-'60 (I believe it was) Buick backing plates and hubs on ford spindles. Somebody on the HAMB sold those adapters, was it Sanfordandson?
Hi Q......All to complicated.... just get Ford associated parts or aftermarket adaptors for compatible spindles and brakes applications........
Ok it was @frisco hey that wasn't bad rememberin' for a 4 yr old reply to a 12 yr old post https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum...hy-not-use-the-hubs.91081/page-2#post-1113767 yep he done it before at sanfordandson was a gleam in his fathers eyes or at least before it was on tv! frisco any chance you could pm me or post those pics of the Buick spindles on the A axle?
Gary Paige in Victoria is certified to heat and bend (drop) axles. He is the go-to guy for that. Truck alignment places are the go-to for alignment axle tweaking.
Lol yes I wanted to build my car as a teenager in the '50's would who bought a near new wrecked Buick at the junkyard in '55-6 and transferred everything onto a model A. I planned on dropping the axle so the camber issue would be dealt with then...you'll find most of us here on the hamb don't take the easy way...
Hi Doug, Morac41 you know I’m a Cadillac man thru and thru. Bet you didn’t know that Henry Ford built the first three Cadillacs in 1902.
@frisco’s spindle swap worked because the KPI on ‘56 Buick spindles is 7* so the camber was just a little out of spec. Even his front end needed a minor adjustment.
Fordors do you happen to know the kpi on the '54 Buick spindles I have? (sorry CadMad) P.S. Ford spindles/brakes aren't exactly as easy to find as one might think
Google is your friend, but in this case I did come up empty. I did find that ‘52 KPI is 4 1/4*, and as mentioned before ‘56 is 7*, but I don’t know when it changed. If the ‘54’s are 4 1/4* KPI and they are used on a Super Bell, or other manufacturers Chevy axle the camber would be OK, but depending on king pin diameter some machine work may be necessary.
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