Hot Rods Big bore ,really short stroke Windsor

Having too much time on my hands I have been looking at a Dart block that is available in a 8.2 deck height and a 4.125 bore with the ability to go to 4.185.
What would be the feasibility to run a 4.155 bore and a 2.87 stroke 289 crank that would give you 311 cu. in. This would be for a Southeast Gasser lbs per cubic inch class car.
Other than custom built pistons. I don't see any other issues. It would rev to the moon and have a big enough bore to run a lot of valve and a wicked roller cam . Not much torque , but all in above 7,000. Would allow my Morris to weigh 2488 with me in the car for B/Gas.
O.K. now I will sit back and read all of the pro's and con's. I would really like to hear from somebody with some knowledge , not somebody who's uncles third cousin knew a neighbor who ran something totally different.

 

When I ran B/A in Comp Eliminator a local machinest (Carroll Carter, known for his 800+ ci Ford Boss motors) ran a similar combination in B/A as well. It was a high RPM motor but couldn't make any torque, he was running a Lenco and couldn't get enough gears, the shifter pods would have run all the way to the rear end. He had one of Bob Gliddens' old Thunderbirds, likely the one that broke the 200mph barrier, probably still has it. We'd occasionally cross paths and I think he was running low 5's in the 1/8th, never saw him at a divisional event probably because of the gears the motor would run out of legs. It was an interesting combination, the heads were huge. He's still making big Ford hemi engines, he bought the Arias' foundry stuff and casts his own blocks, heads etc - google 'Carroll Carter Motorsports' or something like that and he should pop up, give him a call.

 

Thanks.This would be a 1/8 th mile only combo . So my wide ratio Liberty top loader with a 2.75 first gear and a 6 plus gear should be fine.
I remember the Clark and Coonce Corvette ran 7.17 gears with their 287 cu.in. Corvette with a 5 speed in G/Gas . Since 5 speeds are illegal in the SEGA. I would have to stick to a 6.17 or 6.50.

 

I would think it would be horrible out of the hole unless you put a +75# flywheel on it. We did a lot of messing with strokes from 3.4 to 3.85 with 4" bore (4.0-4.090) stuff for circle track. We saw most of our gains with a 6.2 rod, 3.55 stroke engine. Just seemed happy and we turned it 9200 twice a lap with Ernie Elliot top end. Friend used the 8.7 deck big bore block and ran at 362" and made a ton of power. Didn't have to turn it anything like you would with the little stroke. Might want to do some piston speed calculations.
SPark

 

I've often thought about this myself. As above, you'd likely only have issues with torque, so gearing would have to be spot on to get it right. I've heard Dan Williams makes some 2.90 wide ratio gears, but you'd have to call to find out if that's still true, I don't see it on the website. http://www.toploadertransmissions.com/toploaderinfo.html

You could also mess with some other torque mods - long intake runners comes to mind, and if you play with the cam and valve sizes, you should be able to get a nice combo that's real quick in that Morris. Good luck! Let us know if you go this way, I'd love to hear how it turns out.

Mike

 

About all I can say is that it's an interesting idea. Way back in the 60s I ran in limited Sportsman on dirt ovals where we were limited to 305 cid. All the Chevy guys ran either 327 blocks with a 283 crank or a Z28 shortblock assy, maybe with an .20 bore on either setup. 4.020" X 3" was just barely legal at 304.6 cid.
The fastest Ford was Jack Morris with a 289 block, .060 bore and the 289 crank for 297cid. With that big bore you will have lots of room for unshrouding the valves and if the rules allow it, you might consider Cleveland heads.
I would say it's worth researching a bit, because lightweight and lower torque sorta cancel each other out once you get just a little off the bottom end. Gonna take some real sharp engineering on rod length, piston deck height, and camshaft design, but it just might work.
Be great if you could get in touch with one of the Ford gurus that have worked with such ideas and would maybe share their past experiences along these lines. Jimmy Huff in SEGA is running heavier than you with the "Hooptie Wagon" and running a Cleveland head setup with a big bore and short stroke for 361 cid, but I'm not sure of exact bore and stroke.

 

I already have my 308 built that is in the car now, but it will be limited due to the fact that it is a 5.0 block. It has a main girdle and studs, but turning it the rpm's needed will be questionable, but it will get the chassis straightened out before I get crazy.
I ran a 58 lb. flywheel on our .030 over 302 Chevrolet in a 3400 lb. 67 Firebird when we ran G/Gas with it. It had a 2.88 1st gear and a 6.50 gear. We left the line at 8200 rpm's and shifted at 9300.
It had no torque ,but still ran under the NHRA index back in the mid 70's.

 

After doing a ton of reading . A Dart block with 4.125 bore and a 3.25 stroke is a fairly common build with available off the shelf parts . It is called a big bore 347. Meaning my Morris could weigh a reasonable 2776 with carbs and 2576 with stack injection. Dart made 635 hp. on pump gas with single 850 carb and flat top pistons. CP makes a dome piston for this combo bringing the compression to over 12 to 1.

 

I would consider using a 400 sbc rod to get a better stroke to rod leight ratio.

 

You still need a lower 1st gear ratio, maybe consider running a Nash with the special Long shifter that skips on if the gears to still give you a "4 speed. Their legal in NHRA so you shouldn't have any issues with tech. With our 6 cylinders we ran in H/MP we had a 3.45 first gear and 5.57 rear gear. We 60 footed 1.25 40 years ago.

 

sunbeam, we're talking SBF, not SBC here on this engine.

CNC-Dude, NHRA rules don't apply here, just SEGA rules.

 

Can you get Windsor heads to flow up in the range you want to spin it? Remenber you said Windsor....

 

Cleveland heads can be installed on Windsor with a little effort.

 

The NHRA rules said you could only have 4 forward gears, but didn't say you couldn't run a 5 speed with one of the gears skipped via the shifter, didn't know if the gasser rules had similar wording

 

Correct....the heads determine the moniker Windsor or Cleveland, not the block. If they Don't penalize you for using Cleveland heads? I'd use them and really have a ear splitting high RPM mill in it. Do they try to limit you on mods based on some sort of period correctness?

 

I believe that combination will have to turn serious RPM and that equals much $$$ spent, as you know and understand, " Speed costs money, How fast do you want to go " Rouch/Yates are the premo Ford experts, check there for some solid advice. The 347 combo you mention might be the way to go, getting the most bang, for reasonal $$$. Have at it ! Be Safe !

 

Jimmy Huff is running a Cleveland of some sort in the "Hoopty Wagon" in C Gas with SEGA, or at least he was last Fri. night for the exhidition runs @ AMS. 361 cid IIRC.
Cleveland makes a good high rpm engine cause it breathes so well. Just a bit touchy on rocker arms.

 

5 speeds are legal in SEGA, few guys running Doug Nash boxes. Rickey Barnes "Mighty Mouse" is one of them.
We're in the same boat to some degree, I can't build a small enough engine for what my Falcon will weigh for C/Gas without adding a big chunk of lead somewhere. I'm starting with a used street motor to get the chassis sorted out, then it'll be time to build a real engine. I don't have the skill yet to compete in B/gas with the ET's they're running lol.
I like clevelands, but to me the 50# weight break for running iron heads isn't worth the expense to build a clevor. Big picture I think a windsor headed windsor is a better value (box stock AFR 220 renegades are no joke), but cleveland wins the cool points.

This is a tangent subject, but I'm left wondering why there are no SEGA cars running 429/460 based engines. Lots of BBC, no BBF. I know you can take a windsor to 434 or even 460 cid these days, but still. A 429 ford would be fine piece for some B/G or A/G cars and you'd save $ by getting to skip on aftermarket block. Maybe its the weight....

 

One thing to consider is it' going to be hard to make much compression with a short stoke engine. So you'll likely have to consider blank piston domes and fit them yourself and/or cutting the heads a lot.

 

That is a pro stock type configuration. The main problem with these motors is valve train stability and longevity of springs, etc.

 

Lifters and spring technology have come a long way, valve springs, lifters & rockers easily last a full season now. Its incredible, go with jesel or T&D, Isky tool room spring and Crower or isky Lifter and you won't have any problems with valve train breakage.

 

Yates c3 heads can be had at a reasonable price, used these days. It would sure get you all the rpm and hp you need and then some.

 

C3's aren't legal for SEGA competition

 

My issue is I have a brand new set of CNC ported Windsor heads that have never been run and a set of custom built headers for my application . Plus the valvetrain pieces, roller rockers ,stud girdle and the intake manifold.
My pockets are not deep enough to just dump all those items and start over again with Cleveland heads.

 

Go with what you have at the moment. You are gaining a huge benefit with the weight reduction by going to the smaller cubes and you still can make good HP with the heads you have. Make sure the chambers are opened up to be compatible with the larger bore size you are planning to run.

 

Serious RPM costs serious money.

 

This was done with the Pontiac 303 that was developed for SCCA Trans Am in '70. First with a short deck block, (1" shorter block and 1" shorter rods) and then with the standard deck which met homologation rules. This engine did well in the '72 season. They used the RAIV heads onthe race version; these are Pontiac's answer to the big Ford roundports.

The later 303 is revered for its internal dry sump--it ran a pressure pump off the back of the cam shaft and had a dry sump system.

As has been noted, the ratios are off and the engine does not produce until 4,000+. The same stroke was used in the Pontiac 366 for NASCAR and made a lot more power.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/hppp-1209-pioneers-of-the-pontiac-v8/ - a great read for any engine guy.

However, both of these things reved like crazy. Theoretical redline of 9K+. Just if you fall off the table, it's a long way back up.

 

I should have also added this--

http://www.wallaceracing.com/enginetheory.htm

 

So, what did you ever decide?