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Hot Rods Getting the bugs out -My T coupe build

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by goldmountain, Jul 4, 2018.

  1. goldmountain
    Joined: Jun 12, 2016
    Posts: 4,442

    goldmountain

    I remember reading years ago that the proper way to put together a car is to first assemble it completely and drive it to make sure you get all the bugs out before doing the final assembly and paint. Makes sense. My daily driver was fully sorted out by Ford before it was built and I can't see anywhere where they messed up and had to fix it after the paint. That being said, I realize that to assemble the thing twice means that there will be parts scattered all over the place when the final assembly occurs and since I don't have the resources of Ford Motor Company, it's not totally practical. Anyhow, I've decided to try the assemble twice method. This brings me to my current problem that I'm tossing out to you guys. Took the car for a spin around the block and my neighbor notices that my drag link rubs against the radius rod when I turn right. Does anyone know of a tie rod end that would have a curve at the end that I could use to attach to my steering arm that would solve my problem? I know that I could probably just heat and bend my pitman arm so that it is on the outside of my radius rod but I'd rather not do this since I would need a big rosebud tip for my torch which I don't have nor do I want to redo the powder coat on it. The local older alignment guy was no help nor the young bucks at Napa. IMG_1065.JPG
     
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  2. choptop40
    Joined: Dec 23, 2009
    Posts: 5,114

    choptop40
    Member

    Hey hey.can you relocate the drag link to the top of the steering arm...that would give the more than enough clearance..not sure if the arm is tapered...
     
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  3. goldmountain
    Joined: Jun 12, 2016
    Posts: 4,442

    goldmountain

    Thank you. Now that I've got someone else's opinion, it seems obvious.

    Sent from my SM-T350 using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  4. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 55,942

    squirrel
    Member

    I'd like to see a picture from the side view...it could be that if you do that, the drag link will be at quite a different radius than the radius rod, and might introduce bump steer.
     
    Hot Rod Nut likes this.

  5. goldmountain
    Joined: Jun 12, 2016
    Posts: 4,442

    goldmountain

    Don't think that bu p steer is an issue here. Anyhow, tried putting it in from the top and too sharp an angle for the tie rod to work. On to plan B. On to the next problem. There is something wrong with my ignition timing. Did the initial timing with the finger in #1 hole and pointed the rotor to #1. Got it to run but the timing light says I'm way too advanced. Back it off and it won't run anywhere near the timing mark. Thought that maybe the harmonic balancer had issues with it slipping on the rubber so I took it off to swap over another one but it's fine. My brother tells me to just time it statically because I might be off one tooth. Adjusted the distributor where the points just open on the second set of points and saw that my rotor was off and moved it over a tooth and started over. Hasn't helped. Getting nowhere.

    Sent from my SM-T350 using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  6. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 55,942

    squirrel
    Member

    find top dead center, see if the timing mark is right. Then keep going with the "starting over" thing on setting up the distributor and plug wires.
     
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  7. ROADSTER1927
    Joined: Feb 14, 2009
    Posts: 3,127

    ROADSTER1927
    Member

    Make a longer steering bracket for the spindle and that will improve you front end a lot.
     
  8. Last edited: Jul 5, 2018
  9. rwrj
    Joined: Jan 30, 2009
    Posts: 721

    rwrj
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from SW Ga

    You can use a cutting torch tip for a rosebud, if you have one of those. Just make sure you don't trip the lever. Haha
     
  10. goldmountain
    Joined: Jun 12, 2016
    Posts: 4,442

    goldmountain

    Really didn't want to bend the pitman arm but the tie rod fairy didn't leave anything under my pillow last night so out came the torch. Remember I said that you should put the car together first to iron out all the bugs? Well here is a classic case of not practicing what I preach because I powdercoated before checking out the clearances. Bent it a little to far, but I'm getting closer. IMG_1067.JPG
     
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  11. goldmountain
    Joined: Jun 12, 2016
    Posts: 4,442

    goldmountain

    I'm back to my getting this thing to run problem. As mentioned before, I've tried two harmonic balancers, one is 6 3/4" dia., the other 7 1/2" dia. Both have the TDC mark at the same spot and I've checked for actual TDC by making a piston stop tool, cranking the motor over until the piston hits and then going the other way until the piston hits. TDC should be half way between the two marks and it isn't where the harmonic balancer says it is. With this as my new reference, reset my timing, but this time, I swapped out the dual point Mr. Gasket distributor with an old Delco Remy single point to eliminate that as a source of trouble and still not running. Stuffing my finger over #1 and feeling for compression should eliminate the 180 degree out of phase issue. Forgot to mention, I have a 350 SBC with 3 Holley 2100 carbs with progressive linkage. With the switch to the Delco distributor, now the sliding window for dwell adjustment is not really clearing the dashpot that is for slowing the throttle closing on #3 carb. Can this just be removed, or does it have a vacuum passage to it? Open to suggestions.
     
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  12. BJR
    Joined: Mar 11, 2005
    Posts: 9,817

    BJR
    Member

    First thing, when chasing a problem, only change one thing at a time and test it before changing something else. Otherwise you never know what is causing or fixing the problem.
     
  13. goldmountain
    Joined: Jun 12, 2016
    Posts: 4,442

    goldmountain

    Got back onto the steering problem. Bent the pitman arm outwards in my last picture and found that the drag link rubs against the tire on left turn. Heated and bent it again and cracked the pitman arm. Even with it bent further in, I can see that it would still rub on a left turn. Got another pitman arm and now the idea is to weld up the hole on bottom and redrill it with a 7 degree taper going the other way. Since encountering this problem, I've looked at lots of pictures from my vast magazine collection and there are many cars out there with basically the same setup as mine and I can't see where they got the necessary clearance needed for all this to work. With an unsplit wishbone, there is lots of room. I think that the problem may lie in using a 46" wide Magnum axle where Henry's originals would place the spring perch holes further apart. IMG_1077.JPG IMG_1078.JPG
     
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  14. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,222

    F&J
    Member

    What is that pitman arm? some repro "cast" arm? A forged one won't crack unless you did something wrong.


    ok, the older pic of the first bend attempt:
    IMG_1067.JPG
    ^^ that is simply wrong...you changed the ratio in a huge way with that severe bend, not to mention that the forces on that offset bend, that it would have taken if run like that, are dangerous. I would not do that bend style even if it was a forged OEM arm....for the ratio reason as well as the new stresses it will have to take.

    Get the bones under the car!...don't build a sketchy car just to attain some "look".meaning bones out at the rails...especially if you run the wider perch axles.

    I have done two 32's and both cars run split bones, but the back of the bones are under the car...then you can have a car that can turn as tight as you want, with nothing rubbing. One runs a 32 axle with 32 bones, the other runs a 33-36 axle (with same perch distance), but "stepped" late 40s bones. Both cars have the steering stops set right to stock distances.

    .
     
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  15. goldmountain
    Joined: Jun 12, 2016
    Posts: 4,442

    goldmountain

    Well that wasn't the first attempt at bending the Pittman arm. My first picture shows it bent inward inside the radius rod. it there were problems with the drag link rubbing the top of the radius rod on a right turn. The Pittman arm is a genuine 1960's Dodge pickup piece.


    Sent from my SM-T350 using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  16. goldmountain
    Joined: Jun 12, 2016
    Posts: 4,442

    goldmountain

    Also, the bones are under the car with the mount welded on the inside of the frame rails and down far enough for proper caster.

    Sent from my SM-T350 using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  17. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,222

    F&J
    Member

    I will see if I can take pics of my 32 tomorrow, then you will see how far "under the car" I am talking about.

    I studied all your pics again, and I was going to mention that most USA cars from those years used a drag link that was bent like an S, to clear the tire on a tight turn, but the bone seems like it would still be in the way..

    .
     
  18. manyolcars
    Joined: Mar 30, 2001
    Posts: 9,176

    manyolcars

    nope. you have compression on the exhaust stroke too
     
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  19. goldmountain
    Joined: Jun 12, 2016
    Posts: 4,442

    goldmountain

    Went with my plan and put the tie rod in from the other side after welding and redrilling and it works. Now I have clearance. F&J didn't have clearance issues because he had genuine Ford axles. That places the spring perch holes 36 1/2" apart while my Magnum axle is 34" apart. Gives him 1 1/4" more room to play with. Now I have to come up with a longer drag link. Incidentally, I'm using a mid 60's Dodge pickup steering box. Since they used a solid axle up to 1971, there is a reasonable supply of these. IMG_1081.JPG IMG_1082.JPG
     
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  20. BJR
    Joined: Mar 11, 2005
    Posts: 9,817

    BJR
    Member

    Now jump on the front frame horns and see if the steering wheel whips from side to side. If not, no bump steer.
     
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  21. Dirk35
    Joined: Mar 8, 2001
    Posts: 2,067

    Dirk35
    Member

    Frame.jpg I don't think you need to bend the pitman arm or the drag link as much, I think you need to realize what F&J is trying to advise. "Get the bones under the car!...don't build a sketchy car just to attain some "look".meaning bones out at the rails...especially if you run the wider perch axles."

    I made a quick picture to show what he is trying to say. I think that you need to cut off the rear bracket of your radius rods, and move them closer to the center of the vehicle. Check out this quick MS Paint drawing to see what I'm trying to say. Obliviously, the draglink doesn't go out from the frame rail like my drawing, I just did that to exaggerate so you can see why yours is hitting and a stock one that Henry Ford built does not.
     
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  22. goldmountain
    Joined: Jun 12, 2016
    Posts: 4,442

    goldmountain

    This is my first attempt at a transverse Model A rear spring suspension. Used a 9" rear end from a '74 Econoline because it had a 5 1/2" b.c. Had to have that even though no one will ever see it behind the hubcaps. The Econoline has the 3rd member moved way over on the right. My thinking was that I only had to shorten the one side 8" to center the pumpkin. This is mounted on '36 Ford radius rods. Problem was, someone had torched the ends off to get the rear sprjing so I had to fabricate the spring mounts with a guess as to how far back to place them. How far apart to set them was also determined by the take a wild guess method. Referred to Bud Bryan's '29 hiboy writeup on how many leaves to take out of the spring. Can't remember what I came up with but copied the idea of cutting the leftovers for a spacer. The Model A chassis that I got the rear crossmember and spring from sat really tall so I'm sure I took out lots. When I finally assembled it all with the weight of the body on, the shackle angle was way off kilter. More angled on one side than the other which looked bad and placed the body closer to the tire on one side than the other. You aren't supposed to need a panhard bar on this setup but I needed one to adjust this. With everything centered, the shackle angle is nearly vertical and that can't be good.
    Took the T for a test drive and it feels like there is no rear suspension. Every little bump hits hard. Thought I should do the tie wrap on the shocks to see how much suspension travel I had. Jacked up the car only to find that there was less than 1" before the shock would bottom out and that the rear axle ws directly on the exhaust - absolutely no suspension! IMG_1092.JPG IMG_1093.JPG IMG_1094.JPG
     

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  23. They make dropped tie rod ends, I know that Speedy Bill's ancestors sells 'em and (bite my tongue) they are good quality.
     
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  24. goldmountain
    Joined: Jun 12, 2016
    Posts: 4,442

    goldmountain

    The spring measures 47" eye to eye. From the bottom of the spring to the spring eyes is a vertical measurement of 10". From here, I determined to put the rear wheels up on ramps with jack stands under the frame to get it where I really want it. Now from the bottom of the spring to the spring eyes is 11 3/4" with a much better shackle angle and clearance with the exhaust. With the car on the ramps, caster measures out at 6 degrees so when it is back on the ground it should still be good. Speedway's catalog lists their high arch rear spring at 39" eye to eye with a vertical measurement of 15 1/2" from the bottom of the spring to the spring eyes. Have no idea what that means since these are always mounted under tension. I should be able to spread it out to my 47" measurement which should bring the height ddown closer to the 11 3/4" to 12" that I want. Whatever it really works out to should be in the ball park. IMG_1088.JPG
     

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  25. 59Tele
    Joined: Feb 5, 2016
    Posts: 129

    59Tele

    Not if the exhaust valve is open and I'm pretty sure it would be.
     
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  26. on the timing, there are different timing tab locations on the timing chain cover too, if you used the wrong one it will be off.
    Glad you are getting it sorted out before finishing it. I am currently 15 years and 50k miles into my shakedown run, it should be ready for body work and paint soon.
     
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  27. goldmountain
    Joined: Jun 12, 2016
    Posts: 4,442

    goldmountain

    Guys, enough already on the timing and steering issues. That ship has sailed. Back to the rear suspension ills. After considering using the Speedway tall spring, I had a chat with my brother who suggested that I should disconnect the rear shocks and see if that helps. Sure thing - costs me nothing. Looked at the left shock and I saw that I had a bolt jammed into it. I had bolted my ground strap from my body to the frame there in the front of the crossmember. At the time there it seemed like a good location - mainly that there was a hole there already. I guess it was good for clearance until I hit my first bump when my shock moved and jammed it tight. My previously hydraulic shock instantly became a friction shock - heavy on the friction. This explained why my spring remained bottomed out long after the initial event. Have to wait until I get my generator back from the electrical wizards before another trip around the block. IMG_1097.JPG
     
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  28. goldmountain
    Joined: Jun 12, 2016
    Posts: 4,442

    goldmountain

    It is time to change this into a build thread on my T. The last major part, the hood, has been made. The car has been driven around the block illegally a few times now. Most everything works, except the rear spring needs to be jacked up some more for suspension travel and John and Bert are delivering me another A rear spring next weekend at the Lethbridge swap meet, that should be good. The dead generator has been replaced with a 1-wire alternator. Car still doesn't idle but then tune-up has never been my forte. Could always ditch the tri-power now that I have a hood to hide behind. Time to tear it all apart to get it to bare metal, paint, and upholstery and document all this. Hopefully, my computer skills improve so that I can figure out how to get back to this thread, upload pictures from various sources and such. I had been reluctant to show my work because a lot of my ideas were unproven and I didn't want anyone to copy things that didn't work. Due to entrenched poverty and unrelenting sloth, this might take some time to do. IMG_1172.JPG
     
  29. evintho
    Joined: May 28, 2007
    Posts: 2,363

    evintho
    Member

    Looking forward to your build thread! I just went through the same process. Took me 7 years to build my T roadster, got it running/driving, did a couple months of shakedown runs then tore it apart down to bare frame for paint/polish and am currently in final assembly. Should be done in a month or two. Stick with it.....patience and perseverance will get you through to the end!
     
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  30. goldmountain
    Joined: Jun 12, 2016
    Posts: 4,442

    goldmountain

    My inspiration for this car comes from the August 1963 Car Craft article on the Gordon Sully T coupe. One of the first car magazines I bought. It came out about the same time I saw the Guvnor's car club T at a local gas station. This was chopped and channeled with wide whitewall slicks and a hemi. Only saw the car the one time and it really resonated with me. Loved that rear tire above the deck lid look. However, on my car, I chickened out. It's a hiboy. At this point, I would say that a T hiboy coupe is not traditional. Can't remember seeing ANY in all my old magazines. Every sixties era coupe seems to be tall and full fendered. The chopped and channeled ones were built in the fifties. The only memorable old ones in my mind are the Gordon Sully and Buzz Sawyer cars and the AMT chopped T/ stock roadster model kit. If you can find an old T hiboy coupe picture, please post it for me. Scan-190207-0002.jpg
     
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