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Technical 235 acting up

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by cody ellingson, Jun 6, 2018.

  1. cody ellingson
    Joined: Dec 28, 2017
    Posts: 76

    cody ellingson
    Member

    Hello All.
    So I finally got the old gal on the road for a few miles the other day and since then I have developed issues.
    Backstory: low pressure 235, PG, 6V, new split manifolds, dual exhaust, rebuilt carb, new gas tank, new fuel filter. Have not found any vacuum leaks anywhere. Checked intake manifolds, carb, and vacuum advance already. Points seem to be in good condition and adjusted close .020”. Did a compression test the other day and saw starting at Cyl. 1-6 (80, 90, 100, 105, 95, 90)
    I have driven a few miles from my house to put non-oxy gas in and hear the exhaust. The other week I decided to get ballsy and take it to a buddy’s place that was 15 miles from where I live. Low and behold I made it there with no issues whatsoever! We were there for 2-3 hours and decided to head home. On the drive home I noticed the idle starting to fall off at stoplights and the car starting to sputter/choke/fall on its face as I would accelerate. You could accelerate through it slowly and once you got past it the car would drive just fine. By the time I got home the minute I hit the gas it would stall and die. Now it will only idle in Park/Neutral and when I give it the beans it won’t miss, BUT put it into drive and it will act as if it is running on sand during the dead of summer.
    My thought was brand new distributor with HEI, plugs, wires, coil and timing? Any thoughts? A 283 SBC was in the future but I was planning on driving a few years on the 235. Do I throw money at it or pull everything for the swap?
     
  2. ol-nobull
    Joined: Oct 16, 2013
    Posts: 1,655

    ol-nobull
    Member

    Hi. How are you checking vacuum? Do you have a vacuum gauge? You likely only use vacuum for advance & wipers on your car and a severe vacuum leak could be the problem. Should not cost more than $3 or so to replace all the hose. Does your carb have an unused vacuum outlet that needs a rubber cap? You should be able to get all your vacuum needs from the fitting at base of carb on intake manifold. You have a vacuum line from source to wiper switch and then from switch to vacuum motor. If any of the lines look cracked or brittle get rid of them and replace.
    good luck, Jimmie
     
    cody ellingson likes this.
  3. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 7,589

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    I got to be honest, I don't know what this means. And I've driven through sand plenty of times, but I can't relate that to what you're describing.
     
    cody ellingson likes this.
  4. cody ellingson
    Joined: Dec 28, 2017
    Posts: 76

    cody ellingson
    Member

    Quite honestly I was just spraying carb cleaner around all areas that have vacuum to see if the idle changes. Carb, intake manifold, vacuum advance at the the dist. I have not checked the line for the wipers though. I guess I figured since it ran off of intake vacuum that it wouldn’t affect the way the car ran, but it is something I will do now! The vacuum advance is actually a metal line from dist to carb. No unused outlets on the carb. I will Check the wiper lines though! Thanks Jimmie
     

  5. cody ellingson
    Joined: Dec 28, 2017
    Posts: 76

    cody ellingson
    Member

    Hahaha touché sir! That friggen sand!
     
  6. 52HardTop
    Joined: Jun 21, 2007
    Posts: 1,078

    52HardTop
    Member

    I got to think your having carb issues though. I can remember doing a rebuild on my Carter YF carbs back before I swapped them for a pair of Carter WA 1s. No doubt I had a couple of old carb kits that sat on the parts house shelf. The carbs were fine for a very short time then they wen't crazy. No power, popping, leaking etc. Turns out the deathanol in the gas destroyed the rubber parts and I removed them. Maybe your carb kit was also a very old kit? As for the HEI, it was one of the best things I ever did for my 235. I did go 12 volts on my car. I got a mini HEI from Tom Langdon. I do believe there are 6 volt HEI dizzys too?
     
  7. cody ellingson
    Joined: Dec 28, 2017
    Posts: 76

    cody ellingson
    Member

    Might be time to tear the carb back sort and see what I can find. Yes I have found a few 6V HEI out there. I probably won’t go 12V just yet until I can pull everything apart and start fresh with a new harness. That’s another thing I’ll have to go over is the wiring to make sure everything to the dist is grounded well
     
  8. not that one guy
    Joined: Mar 28, 2011
    Posts: 293

    not that one guy
    Member
    from So NV

    What rpm is your idel set at?



    A vaccum gauge would help with initial set up, mixture screw/idel



    Distributor could also need advancing but you will need to do more troubleshooting.




    .
     
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  9. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 55,931

    squirrel
    Member

    why would you completely change the ignition system, to a different type, because something is now not working properly, that was working just fine a few weeks ago? Did the entire ignition system design suddently quit working?

    Help me understand :)

    (you might want to do some trouble shooting instead, and see if you can figure out what changed, to make it run badly)
     
  10. cody ellingson
    Joined: Dec 28, 2017
    Posts: 76

    cody ellingson
    Member

    I figured since the system hadn’t been updated in awhile that maybe with a fresh tune-up and new parts that would be a good place to start. I’m still very new to this so I’m only thinking out loud when I post on here!

    I guess where is the best place to start for troubleshooting. Carb first or ignition first? Or doesn’t it really matter? I’d like to get it idling well so I can check the timing and possibly time it better than what it is at.

    You always ask the important questions @squirrel
     
  11. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 55,931

    squirrel
    Member

    Ah, that's where it gets fun. If you completely replace the ignition system, then you can probably rule that out as the problem, when it still runs like crap :)

    but it could be either, as the symptoms are kind of similar, for weak/late spark, and fuel starvation. But they are not exactly the same. For example, many years ago when I got my truck running with the 235, a couple things I encountered that caused similar symptoms, were a loose wire from the coil to the distributor, and a kinked rubber fuel line from the tank to the main line that goes forward.

    In the ignition system, check the points again carefully, and make sure the plastic insulator is in good condition where the wire connects, make sure there is nothing funny going on inside the distributor. try disconnecting the vacuum advance tube and see if it changes how it runs. Carefully inspect the entire ignition system. Check the intensity of the spark (carefully).

    On the fuel system, check for plugged lines, or fuel leaks. Make sure the nuts that hold the carb on are still tight, and the bolts that hold the base of the carb to the main body, Look things over, see if anything looks amiss.
     
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  12. studebaker46
    Joined: Nov 14, 2007
    Posts: 715

    studebaker46
    Member

    one place that was a problem on these was the carb baseplate and it doesn't always show up at idle, just take your time and check everything, but start with one system fuel or ign check the whole system then go to the next one. As squirrel said check it out don't just throw parts at it Tom
     
    cody ellingson likes this.
  13. I guess where is the best place to start for troubleshooting. Carb first or ignition first? Or doesn’t it really matter? I’d like to get it idling well so I can check the timing and possibly time it better than what it is at.

    You have done the compression check, now do the vacuum check. Then MAYBE there will be some indication of what is wrong.

    Ben
     
  14. cody ellingson
    Joined: Dec 28, 2017
    Posts: 76

    cody ellingson
    Member

    You make a good point with rebuilding the distributor and having it still run like junk. Tonight I did remove the vacuum advance to see if it would clean up the idle a bit, but it seems like it actually stumbled a tad more during idle, similar to it having trouble staying at idle. I plugged both the carb and the advance line to the distributor. While checking spark the other day I did notice that the spark was irregular and quite weak on some of the cylinders. The plug wires could probably use an upgrade as they are not seating tight on the end of the plug.

    I will dive into the fuel system this weekend, along with giving the ignition system a go as well. There is always a chance I over looked something on that end. Trying to follow the manual as best I can.
     
  15. 302GMC
    Joined: Dec 15, 2005
    Posts: 7,856

    302GMC
    Member
    from Idaho

    If you recently changed any electrical such as cond. or coil, put the old Delco parts back in. You can pull the lid off the carb in the car to check for floating crap. You can squeeze the plug wire terminals tight with your pliers.
     
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  16. Kerrynzl
    Joined: Jun 20, 2010
    Posts: 2,905

    Kerrynzl
    Member

    With split manifolds is the intake still heated?

    I would f**k off the Rochester B carb and put on a Holley 1946 from a 200 Ford.
    [A spritzer bottle full of gasoline has a better metering system than the old "B"]

    Instead of spending $$$ on a HEI why don't you buy a timing light with the adjustable "Advance" Feature.
    The little triangle on the flywheel is TDC [the ball bearing is 7deg advance]
    Set 28-32 deg on the timing light and set the dizzy at 3000 rpm to the triangle on the flywheel.

    I am assuming 6v is 6 volt, so HEI is out of the question unless you convert to 12 volt
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2018
  17. carbking
    Joined: Dec 20, 2008
    Posts: 3,715

    carbking
    Member

    Cody - the general rule of thumb in testing is:

    Compression
    Ignition
    Carburetion

    You have done the compression, so can rule that out.

    Several here have given good advice on checking the ignition. One other item not yet mentioned (although one of the tests Jim mentioned is similar) is to check the advance function of the distributor. This can be done with a timing light. Not sure if this is one of the engines with no timing mark (some earlier engines had different methods of adjusting timing) but if has none, you can determine top dead center of the engine, and then paint a white dot on the harmonic balancer. Then using the timing light (you will need a helper), try to speed up the engine and watch to see if the dot "moves".

    Something else that hasn't been mentioned is the possibility of "old gas". How old is the gas in your tank? Two month old gasoline can really give drivability issues.

    You have mentioned the word "upgrade" a couple of times. "Upgrade" is NOT something you want to attempt on a non-functioning engine. Regardless of the vendor hype, not all "upgrades" are compatible with original, or other upgrades. Test, fix the problem, THEN if you wish to make changes (some of which MAY be an upgrade) do so ONE AT A TIME! That way, should difficulties arise, you can undo the "upgrade" (does that make it a "downgrade"???).

    One final thought, and this contradicts what I said about testing the ignition: From you symptoms, my first thought was fuel filter. You did replace the fuel filter, but old gasoline could have already partially plugged the new filter. I might suggest another fuel filter change. And if the gasoline IS old, drain the tank, giving the gasoline to some farmer to use in burning brush-piles, and put in new fuel.

    Jon.
     
  18. cody ellingson
    Joined: Dec 28, 2017
    Posts: 76

    cody ellingson
    Member

    You are correct that it is older gasoline. I put in about a 1/4 tank a few months ago just to make sure it wouldn’t die while troubleshooting a few other issues initially, and then added fresh 1/2 tank about 2 weeks ago. I was unaware that gas within a few months could cause this many issues on these cars. My carbaurated Harley sat with some sea foam and old gas all winter, never missed a beat this spring. I did the same wth this car, but maybe not enough based on the amount of gas.
    I have ruled out replacing the distributor based on opening it up and checking the points again, so I think some fresh plugs and wires are in order seeing as the ones on the car are probably over a year old (meaning the PO might not have changed those from however long the owner before had it). I have an extra fuel filter that I will swap in and see if that helps. I do have a triangle on the harmonic balancer and a small B.B. looking seal that I can view through the window down near the starter. I’ll get those things dialed in this weekend and let you guys know what kind of progress is made. Most likely include some pictures as well.
     
    302GMC likes this.
  19. I had this exact same problem on an OT 75 spitfire with a webber 2 barrel. (it was the reason i got the car so cheap)
    PO swore it wasn't the carb as he had cleaned it and rebuilt it a couple of times.
    here is what i found and what fixed the issue...
    the carb had Emulsion Tubes. the only way to get them out was to put a small pick in the hole at the bottom of the float bowl and pry them up. once i pulled them out i found them caked with debris (this was after the PO had put the parts in a sonicator). once i cleaned them and put them back the car ran great in all driving conditions.
    now, having said that, your carb may or may not have emulsion tubes but the symptoms you are experiencing tell me it very well may be carb related.
    hope this helps
    Chappy
    Part 7a on this drawing. they are lightly pressed in under the Air jets
    http://www.carburetion.com/diags/3236DFAVDiaginfo.asp
     
  20. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 33,861

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I'd go along with the gas with alcohol in it that we have now eating up carb parts. That happens rather quickly too if the internals are older style material.
    One main problem I have had with every thing that has sat or a long time is that stuff tends to get broken loose in the gas tank and work it's way to the carb if you don't have a real good filter in the line and preferably one between the tank and the line. I you have one of those glass bowl things on the carb thinking it is a filter, they aren't a filter or much of one, they catch the big chunks of sediment like sand and trap some or most of the water but the fine stuff goes right on past them. That could be part and partial to the ran great at the house, did fine running a few blocks and back and acted up on a 15 mile road trip where the gas managed to slosh around in the tank a lot. If you haven't already pulled the tank and flushed it out good it might be a wise idea to do it.
    I am not a fan of going out and buying this that and another and changing it while trying to figure out what the problem is rather than actually hunting down the actual problem.
    On the vacuum leak, a vacuum leak is a vacuum leak no matter where it is or where the line is connected to. If it was the line to the wipers I would believe that you should be able to hear the leak though.
    Points on that one should be set at .016 according to this. http://www.tpocr.com/chevr.html
    I think that is what I always set the points in the 235 I had in my El Camio at. I'd check for anything that may have come loose inside the distributor including the screw that holds the condenser down.
     
  21. Budget36
    Joined: Nov 29, 2014
    Posts: 13,173

    Budget36
    Member

    If you accelerate the throttle by hand while under the hood, does the distributor advance? You should see it twist some,if not, could be the diaphragm in the vacuum advance is shot, that would also be a source of a vacuum leak.
     
  22. Since you've checked the compression, and it has been running with the current ignition, I'd do a quick check to make sure points haven't slipped, but with the car sitting with old gas, I'd lean towards plugged or partially plugged filter or passages in the fuel/carb system.
     
  23. cody ellingson
    Joined: Dec 28, 2017
    Posts: 76

    cody ellingson
    Member

    So as to not leave another thread dead, I am finally getting back to you guys! I got married on Saturday and unfortunately all the planning/prep work took precidense over working on the 52, but I’m happy to say she is running better than before today.

    I took most of your advice and first thing I did was tear down the carb, clean all jets/passages. Upon doing that I noticed the rubber spacer to the intake was upside down and didn’t not have the gasket lined up correctly with the grooves on the top of the spacer and the hole in the bottom of the carb. Strike 1 newbie! Take pictures when taking things apart for long periods of time.

    Next I made sure to check for vacuum leaks on the wiper lines, which are in surprisingly good shape. I closed off the heat plate enricher as that could have been a source of intake leakage. Along with that I changed the fuel filter which had a small amount of sediment in it.

    Moving onto ignition I ended up buying new plugs, wires, and dizzy cap. Other than that I haven’t touched anything and it has been running strong. The stumbling under acceleration has vanished and it does not miss anymore. Tomorrow will be a little air/fuel tweaking and then a shakedown to see how it reacts when warmed up on the same trip I took last time it acted up.

    If all goes well, there is a chance she will down at Back to the 50s this weekend! Hope this helps another guy down the line and gives some confidence in your guys ability to trouble shoot based on literature on what’s wrong with a vehicle! Can’t thank you guys enough for the advice!
     
    302GMC likes this.
  24. What air cleaner are you running? Ive seen the darndest things with those newer chrome ones. Id stick to the oil bath if you got it.

    Sent from my SM-G955U using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  25. RMONTY
    Joined: Jan 7, 2016
    Posts: 2,540

    RMONTY
    Member

    Good old fashioned tune ups work wonders. Maybe that's why the old timers tuned their cars up on a regular basis. :)
     
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  26. 59Tele
    Joined: Feb 5, 2016
    Posts: 129

    59Tele

    As long as we're talking about 235s that won't run, here's something unusual that happened to mine, a '61 Biscayne that I bought for a hundred bucks and drove for 7 years. So, middle of the winter in NH it gets pretty cold but this thing would ALWAYS start, except for the morning it didn't. Tried a fresh set of plugs and checked the points and cap and rotor and a little gas down the carb, a tow chain, all the usual stuff. It was getting a strong spark but wouldn't even cough, much less run. Long story short, the distributer had a threaded grease cup on the side that you could give a turn occasionally to force grease into the bushing. That particular night it got cold enough that the grease locked everything up so much that when the key was turned the whole distributer rotated throwing it way out of timing. This may not apply to the OP's situation but probably worth retaining.
     
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  27. cody ellingson
    Joined: Dec 28, 2017
    Posts: 76

    cody ellingson
    Member

    I’m running the old style oil bath currently. I had thought about possibly switching over to a newer, smaller style but until I have this thing running 100% I’m going to stick with what works!
     
  28. cody ellingson
    Joined: Dec 28, 2017
    Posts: 76

    cody ellingson
    Member

    I won’t be driving in the winter but it’s always good to have a story of an experience to keep in the quiver. Might not always happen, but it could and knowledge is power.
     
  29. cederholm
    Joined: May 6, 2006
    Posts: 1,748

    cederholm
    Member

    Sorry if I missed this if posted above - did your distributor loosen up?
     
  30. cody ellingson
    Joined: Dec 28, 2017
    Posts: 76

    cody ellingson
    Member

    No it didn’t. Sounds like I jut needed a good tune up. Cleaned the carb, aligned some vacuum ports, sealed off some open ports, new plugs, wires, and dist cap. Boom runs great so far
     
    cederholm likes this.

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