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Technical Please don't do this.

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by edwardlloyd, Jun 12, 2018.

  1. edwardlloyd
    Joined: Aug 2, 2003
    Posts: 2,072

    edwardlloyd
    Member
    from Germany

    I'm in the process of restoring an original "untouched" traditional hot rod frame imported from the US.
    If you're going to replace the front crossmember on a 32 Ford please rivet or bolt it in. That goes for the motor mounts too.
    If it's welded in like this, it makes it really difficult and messy for me to take it out again later. 20180612_121912.jpg

    Sent from my SM-G935F using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
    Dave Mc, Atwater Mike, RICH B and 2 others like this.
  2. 392
    Joined: Feb 27, 2007
    Posts: 1,206

    392
    Member

    Funny but true.
     
  3. clem
    Joined: Dec 20, 2006
    Posts: 4,188

    clem
    Member

    Bigger grinder, meaning bigger diameter disc, and/or gas axe.............might make your job easier !
     
  4. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,222

    F&J
    Member

    Edward , I'm sure many here will take this the wrong way, but so many modern "followers" of the old genuine builds have their heads up their butts to think that old 1950's builds had frames like today's builds.

    it cracks me up when I see the masses get all aroused when some "retro builder" uses rivets to add a later V8 Ford X center section, or a front crossmember, into a 32 frame. That just never happened on the street driven hotrods built by mostly very young blue collar guys back then.

    If a front member was loose, and even cracked in the center, it got welded & plated up by some other local guy that was lucky enough to have a stick welder back then.

    Of course we now need to repair/reweld things that we see are going bad, or will soon fail, but many people get so buried in perfection that their car never sees the road for a very, very long time in our "too short" lifespans...

    I was lucky to find locally, an old 50s frame for mine on a shoestring budget...I chose to leave some of the scarring at the rear tails behind the rear spring crossmember, (it may have been some old coil spring mounts welded on) ... because in all reality ..who cares, and who will ever look.. The few that ever did merely said "Wow, this IS an old build" Lmao..

    A funny side note... my early Olds starter went bad 10 days ago, I finally just fixed it late yesterday by a quick swap to a new modern Ross mini starter I had on the shelf for 4 years! I just needed to get back out there! I was really bummed out by the sound of it..it now sounds like a modern import car cranking... BUT!...as I was hitting two places I need to stop at, I see a "looker" 50 year old blonde all decked, out getting back to her daughters car on the passenger side...I pulled right next to her :) She stopped getting into that car, and asked if she could take a pic of the hotrod, I said of course you can..then I said "have your daughter take a pic with you and the car".. Then she spots the all white interior, the two tone '40 dash...then says "can I sit in it for a pic?" I said SURE, lots of people do!!

    We 3 ended up BSing for 15 minutes, she knew so many of the old local car garage shop owners and old stock car builders!, ...We had fun and I made two more casual friends! (oh...and they never looked for frame damage, or heard that shitty sounding mini starter!!) :rolleyes::oops: lol


    strange...but as I got back to within a mile from my home, a 32 highboy roadster passes by me coming the other way!!... it was fists in the air...and two more rods out on the road.. Yes, Route 32 is the road I live on!
    .
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018

  5. That has been pretty much standard procedure for as long as I can recall. Not very many people can rivet anymore.
     
    F&J likes this.
  6. She's not a virgin, untouched original -

    But some people have real problems to deal with. Your's is a few hours of sucking dirt and sparks.
     
    Clay Belt, VANDENPLAS, Hombre and 3 others like this.
  7. Kan Kustom
    Joined: Jul 20, 2009
    Posts: 2,739

    Kan Kustom
    Member

    Not to mention that a lot more people are building non traditional rods than are building traditional to this forums standards. You have to inspect and ask many questions to get a virgin unmodified part.
     
  8. IronTrap
    Joined: Jul 13, 2011
    Posts: 510

    IronTrap
    Member

    So welders aren't allowed now because it wasn't done from the factory? I'd rather someone weld this stuff in than half-assed rivet them in because they don't know how to set rivets properly. I'd rather a solid welded part that's safe over a cross member that's riveted incorrectly (because it's "period correct") and comes loose. Do what works for you and is safe.
     
  9. luckythirteenagogo
    Joined: Dec 28, 2012
    Posts: 1,269

    luckythirteenagogo
    Member
    from Selma, NC

    I read on here awhile back, "Every time you drive your car there is at least one life at stake." In my eyes safety will always trump period correctness if you are building it to be driven.

    Sent from my SM-G920V using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
    Stogy, VANDENPLAS, deadbeat and 4 others like this.
  10. I always thought a "hot rod" (traditional or other) and "Hot Rodding" was exactly about changing a car from how it left the factory?
    If welding was the "traditional" way of building hot rods back in the day then welding today is certainly "traditional"
    My dad would always tell me when I got to into the minutia of a project "son, we are not building pianos here, we are building the crate the piano goes in."
    And about me getting obsessive about cleaning and not driving my cars he would say "that's like not "doing" your girlfriend to keep her fresh for the next guy"
    YMMV.
    Chappy
     
  11. Johnny Gee
    Joined: Dec 3, 2009
    Posts: 12,600

    Johnny Gee
    Member
    from Downey, Ca

    Kaiser didn't seem to mind. [​IMG]
     
    Bleach likes this.
  12. 41rodderz
    Joined: Sep 27, 2010
    Posts: 6,540

    41rodderz
    Member
    from Oregon

    Your Dad was a smart man Chappy. :D What you stated is the truth.
     
  13. I am a firm believer in making the frame rigid when installing something other than the old flathead or smaller displacement 4 cylinders,I also subscribe to the Model A front cross members on a Deuce frame and I always weld them in.

    To each his own,the beauty of building hot rods is there are no hard fast rules,I know some are hard core traditionalist and I get that but we all have different building styles.HRP
     
  14. trey32
    Joined: Jul 27, 2014
    Posts: 326

    trey32

    The great debate continues!!!!
     
  15. 302GMC
    Joined: Dec 15, 2005
    Posts: 7,856

    302GMC
    Member
    from Idaho

    If you drive it, weld it. If you show it & brag about it, rivets are for you ...
     
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  16. Boryca
    Joined: Jul 18, 2011
    Posts: 709

    Boryca
    Member
    from Detroit

    Since we're talking about riveting vs welding here, and not to say anything at all to tradition, but riveting can actually be stronger than a weld. Think bridges - ever see a weld on a suspension bridge? Rivets can actually create a tighter bond in many cases.
     
    bct likes this.
  17. XXL__
    Joined: Dec 28, 2009
    Posts: 2,117

    XXL__
    Member

    I don't know how great it is, but it is definitely a debate.
     
    lewk likes this.
  18. XXL__
    Joined: Dec 28, 2009
    Posts: 2,117

    XXL__
    Member

    Tighter bond? No. More flexible? Yes.
     
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  19. Cutting and welding are one of the biggest parts of customizing
    The only part of a chassis that should unbolt is for trans removal

    The Titanic sunk due to bad riveting
    Ships now are welded
    Try fully riveting a roll cage in and get it to pass tech inspection
    Most new full frames are welded now
    They are building a new bridge close to me and there are zero rivets in it
    it is replacing a riveted bridge. (I will admit the older bridge looks better)

    Rivets can be strong and look great on period builds
    I plan on using them to decorate my next chassis after it is fully welded

    When I build stuff making it easy for the next guy is not important
    Making it last is
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
  20. Boryca
    Joined: Jul 18, 2011
    Posts: 709

    Boryca
    Member
    from Detroit

    It depends on the layout of the rivets as well as the skill of the installer. Don't forget that ships used to be built with rivets too. Aircraft still are, though a lot of that comes down to the difficulty in welding aluminum, and also ease of repair when dealing with rivets.

    There are also many different types of rivets based on the alloy being joined, the strength desired, and the forces acting on the rivet (shear vs tension or compression) and that proper selection is key. I stand by my statement.
     
  21. Atwater Mike
    Joined: May 31, 2002
    Posts: 11,625

    Atwater Mike
    Member

    You should always think of the next guy, it's Eastern philosophy.
    It seemed to escape me, however, with previous girl friends and cars I had owned.
    I was hardly celibate with either, never gave 'the next guy' a thought.
    The cars forgot, but the girls didn't...:rolleyes:
     
  22. edwardlloyd
    Joined: Aug 2, 2003
    Posts: 2,072

    edwardlloyd
    Member
    from Germany

    If you weld it in nicely I'm fine with it. What I'm referring to, is the twisted rails, crossmember badly welded in with 1/2" plates welded on top of 1/2" plates, all sploged in place with gobs of 110v mig wire.
    A properly welded job doesn't look like this and is a lot easier to undo.

    Sent from my SM-G935F using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
    Nostrebor, deadbeat, brad2v and 3 others like this.
  23. oj
    Joined: Jul 27, 2008
    Posts: 6,454

    oj
    Member

    No such thing as an 'original 'untouched' traditional hotrod frame', you can expect the unexpected and I'll guarantee theres' worse in store than the welded crossmember.
    But then I assume you already figured that out and regret starting the thread, oh well, we've all done worse.
     
    Clay Belt likes this.
  24. Dooley
    Joined: May 29, 2002
    Posts: 2,956

    Dooley
    Member
    from Buffalo NY

    F&J really gets it!!
    coming from a guy with stick welded gussets for the spring hanger done almost 60 years ago
     
  25. Ebbsspeed
    Joined: Nov 11, 2005
    Posts: 6,250

    Ebbsspeed
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Please explain how riveting can be a tighter bond. Welding molecularly bonds two or more pieces of metal into what, after welding, can be considered a single piece of metal. With riveting you will always have a minimum of three pieces, ie one rivet and two pieces of metal being joined.

    Copied from a couple of mechanical engineering sites:

    Welding is a permanent joining of two similar metals by melting the point where they join and (often) adding additional "filler" material to facilitate. If done properly, the join becomes homogeneous and stronger than the surrounding metal. The only way of removing a weld is destructively.

    Rivet jointing of material is a semi-permanent jointing method. two components are placed alongside - one normally with a flange - clamped in place and then a hole drilled directly through both metals. A rivet is then fitted and hammered in place - normally forming a dome, but other rivet forms are available and can be used....even "hidden rivets" where the rivet is forged (repeatedly hit by a hammer) into a countersunk hole and then machined afterwards to create an invisible joint.

    There are advantages and disadvantages to both. Welding can affect the cellular structure of the metal creating internal stresses and weak points, adds material and can only be undertaken in similar metals.

    Riveting on the other hand can be undertaken in dissimilar metals, and can be separated afterwards (with some effort), however the joint is not homogenous and significant attention has to be paid to the stresses within the rivets in all likely situations. Poorly chosen rivet material (and plate material) combinations can result in unintended galvanic corrosion and early failure, thermal expansion of the plate material overstressing the rivets and breaking down the join (this is where in high temperatures the plates expand, causing a tensile loading to present within the rivet and a compressive loading on the plate around the rivet head that may exceed the Young's Modulus -of either the rivet or, compressively, the plate itself - causing a loosening of the joint and premature failure)

    Advantages:
    1. The welded structures are usually light in weight compared to riveted structures. This is due to the reason, that in welding, gussets or other connecting components are not used.
    2. The welded joints provide high efficiency, which is not possible in the case of riveted joints.
    3. Alterations and additions can be made easily in the existing structures.
    4. Welded structures are smooth in appearance, therefore it looks pleasing.
    5. A welded joint has a great strength. Often a welded joint has the strength of the parent metal itself.
    6. It is easily possible to weld any part of a structure at any point. But riveting requires enough clearance.
    7. The process of making welding joints takes less time than the riveted joints.
    8. Shape like cylindrical steel pipes can be easily welded. But they are difficulty for riveting.
    9. The welding provides very strong joints. which can’t be bended easily. This is in line with the modern trend of providing rigid frames.
    10. In welded connections, the tension members are not weakened as in the case of riveted joints.
    Disadvantages:
    1. For making weld joints using weld symbols requires a highly skilled labour and supervision.
    2. Since there is an uneven heating and cooling in welding process during fabrication, therefore the members may get distorted or additional stresses may develop.
    3. Since no provision is kept for expansion and contraction in the frame, therefore there is a possibility of cracks developing in it.
    4. The inspection of defects in welding work is more difficult than riveting work.
     
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  26. I think that we've all had issues of poor workmanship with cars we've owned. Problem is the guys that do good work ya don't have to worry about. And the hacks won't listen anyway. :)
     
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  27. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 33,861

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Old car frames needed to flex and move just as steel bridges need to flex and move a bit. The frames of Stock rigs were a working part of the whole suspension and the rivets let them flex when the rig went over rough ground which was the norm rather than the exception for driving.
    As far as riveting a crossmember back in a rig to make it "authentic" because someone who is overly anal about such things might possibly by it several years after you build it that is a stretch. If things are that critical to you make damned sure that they are the way you want them before the purchase or live with it.
    I can drive and buck rivets in aluminum simply because I was trained to do it by Boeings in 1966 when I worked as a rivet bucker. Bottom level job where I would have become a riveter if I had stayed. I bucked the window section rivets on a lot of 727 airplanes that year. I drove some steel rivets while replacing the sickle bar blades on my grandfather's hay mower when he decided he could trust me to do it while he did other tasks. Even with those smaller rivets you had to set them right or they would loosen up. That said I wouldn't attempt riveting a frame back together unless I did some serious studying on the process.
     
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  28. FYI - There’s a Company called (Big Flat River Company) that sells Rivets for Replacement in 1932 Fords Frames & Up. The Address: P.O. Box 100.
    Canal Street, Big Flats, N.Y.
    14818. US.A.
    (607) 562-3501
    Hope this Helps ! Regards
    BigDTexasKid S.S. Tx.


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  29. Riveting rolls with the flow of flex and doesn't fuss much. Riveting is good if you can't eliminate the flex.
    welding doesn't play well with flexing and tends to fatigue and crack or rip apart a weldment.

    Both are good in their environment, it's a lot like comparing a fish to a fox.
     
  30. The exact meaning of the word "traditional" varies a lot depending on who says it.
     
    milwscruffy and F&J like this.

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