I got this old tin side v8 60 at a price that seemed fair for a "take it as it is" deal. It was complete, so I can probably break even parting it out if it is junk. It was stuck, but not too bad. Oiled it up and let it sit a few days and it popped loose with a wrench on the crank nut. Had a couple of stuck valves, but I got them working. Went through the carb and distributor, added clean oil (its missing the dipstick, and there is some disagreement on the internet about whether it takes 4 or 6 quarts, so I put 5 in. Figured it wouldn't hurt itself too much being 1 quart off either way.) I got it to fire and stumble along, noticed straight oil coming out with the exhaust. I mean a pretty good spray. Also oil dripping off of the bottom of the pan. "Boy", I says to myself, "this thing has a busted block, and you just learned a lesson." So I popped the heads off. I don't see any cracks, but I may be stupid or something. It does have a one chewed up piston and another cylinder wall with some bad pits. So, after all that rambling, here's the point. Where do I check next on the oil in the exhast? There was no sign on the head gaskets or heads of it leaking past. Cracked block around the exhaust manifolds? Is that common with these? I appreciate any input I get. P.S. - That dipstick in the pictures is just one from an old MG motor I threw in there to plug the hole. I know you guys have eagle eyes, and someone would have wondered if I just thought the dipstick was missing because I didn't know where to look. Ha
You're going to have oil in the exhaust if you have broken rings and few other things. It runs. Don't fire it up again due to the bad piston and crap from it. Tear it down to see what you have. Take it to a reputable shop, certainly not "WAYNES" in Riverside, CA., to have them look at it. Get it magna fluxed and go from there. A rebuild with a standard bore can run about $2500 or more on a flathead and that is without resleeving and boring the cylinders.
Dave, Thank you for the response. I'm encouraged you didn't just say junk it. Dropped the pan today, not too much goop, oil pickup screen looks fairly clean, no obvious water damage down there, at least at first glance. I'll know more when I can get the caps off of it and drop the crank and pistons.
The bore and rings are probably not pristine, however I'd suggest that you calibrate your pan volume before you go any further. If you observed external oil leaks as well as oil pumped out the exhaust you might have the "4qt pan" and just too much oil. You need to determine this whether you decide to spend the resources on rebuilding or just clean it up.
I'm re-thinking the oil pumping deal. Had to take the exhaust pipes loose from the manifold to drop the pan. I was careful so I could see which side the oil was coming from. Neither manifold had any signs or oil at all, dry soot as far as my finger would reach, but the pipes still had oil in them. Here's my current thinking. This thing was mildly stuck when I got it. I poured a good bit of MMO and PB Blaster into the cylinders to get it free, every day for a couple of weeks, then it just popped over with a wrench on the crank. Blew most of the oil out of the spark plug holes clearing the cylinders and working up oil pressure, but I bet a bunch of it went out the open exhaust valves, too. If I had a good sealing piston at the top of it's stroke with the exhaust valve open, I was basically pouring a tablespoon a day straight through it. The exhaust pipes have a low spot, so I think I was just blowing what had accumulated there out when I finally got it to stumble along for a bit. It only ran for about 10 seconds. It's the only thing that makes sense to me. Doesn't seem possible that I could have pumped that much oil through the exhaust yesterday and had no sign of it today. I do think I was a quart over in the pan, though. I'll be sure to check it. Factory literature says 4 quarts, some internet guys insist 5.
you only ran it for 10 seconds? and you are trying to diagnose oil issues from that? The big pits in the bore mean it needs a sleeve. At least.
I shut it down quick because of the oil issues. I'm diagnosing them by taking it apart and asking advice on here. No sense trying to make a runner out of it as it sits with that piston and the pitted bores. If it was blowing out the extra quart, it didn't blow it through the exhaust manifolds. I feel pretty confident that I poured that oil in there freeing it up. It sat for about three weeks after I freed it, but before I could get to it to start it. I'm not talking a few drips or specks of oil, when I got that thing to fire it spat like a baseball player. Hell, like half a team of them. The manifolds would have to be wet inside if that much went through there. I'm hoping the bottom end bearings look good and I can get away with a careful ring job and sleeve the holes that need it (I can still see a bit of cross-hatching on the bores, just going to replace the ones that had water in them). I'll remove the intake today and check on the condition of the valve-train. Appreciate the help and comments.
Fun little motor, especially in a "T" roadster if you keep the weight down(sort of like you washed your "A-V8" & it shrunk! LOL)
Thank you. I'm hoping to use it in a T frame, Model A axles, some kind of rudimentary speedster body. I took the intake off and found this. My flathead v8 experience is completely vicarious, just internet research, but am I wrong to be encouraged by this? It has obviously had some water in it, judging by a few of the springs and the ports, but the rust doesn't seem to extend to the valve guides or down into the block. Don't worry, I cleaned it up with a shop vac, none of that crud got into the motor.
As you have to tear it down anyway, I suggest putting each valve/spring/guide/lifter in a labeled(where it came from) baggie. That way you can get them back where they originally came from . Do similar for the other parts as well. Rotary wire brush the ports, pressure wash the block after the wire brushing, dye-check(or magnaflux) the block for cracks,(minor cracks are usually repairable), have the necessary machine work done, pressure wash again, reassemble, & have fun with your "build"! If you didn't "hot-tank" the block the cam bearings are probably OK, otherwise you need install new ones(the cross-hatch on the cylinders shows a low hour motor, so the cam bearings shouldn't be worn enough to need replacement, but measure them anyway to be sure). If you've done "flatties" in the past this is old news, but if you've not, these are just suggestions. If you can find an old time "midget" racer in your area who ran a V8-60 in their car, they can give you a lot more info!!
I appreciate all of the suggestions about magnafluxing and machining, but I just don't have that kind of money right now. I'm hoping I can get this thing running on a budget. Any suggestions along those lines? Obviously, a complete rebuild would be best, but since that's not going to happen right now, how can I get a runner out of this? My plan, pending information from you guys, is to replace the bad piston and the pitted sleeves, hone them all and replace the rings, and clean those nasty ports. I know that won't be long-term, and I sure don't want to do anything that's going to cause destruction, but I'm anxious to build a car around this thing.
You're going to have to have nachined and sleeved. No doubt about that. Easy to rebuild your self Sent from my SM-G930T using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
Check out the January 2018 Hot Rod Deluxe if you want to see long term success with a V8 60. Rod Hynes and his tub on the cover and a feature inside. great read.
sounds like a pretty good plan. But do you understand the process of sleeving a block? The cylinder is overbored a whole bunch, and a cast iron sleeve installed (it's a shrink fit, the sleeve is chilled before being driven into the bore). Then the sleeve is bored and honed to size. You'll have to do some good talking with a machine shop to convince them you just want to fix it, and not totally remanufacture everything. Cam bearings get eaten up by old fashioned caustic hot tanks, but they will survive modern jet washing solutions, as most machine shops have to deal with modern aluminum engines, so they use safer cleaning methods.
Squirrel The 60s came with sleeves from the factory, so don't need to be bored to put a NOS replacement in, kind of like the old Ford tractor motors.
I'v looked at the photos several times and it sure looks like a factory sleeved block. See if you can confirm this. If so, there may not be a need for any machining. The thin wall (.040 wall thickness) sleeves were originally removed by "crushing" them. The new sleeves were installed with a mandrel to avoid distortion. Go to your nearest TSC store and buy a service manual for 9n, 2n, and 8n Ford tractors. They have pretty good information on the original tools and processes to remove and reinstall the sleeves. Note that later tractors were supplied with thick wall sleeves and those sleeves require entirely different tools and processes. Also be aware that the tractors used the Mercury 3-3/16 bore sleeves and not the 2.6 bore. You can get by without the sleeve crushing tool as you are only interested in destroying the old sleeve to get it out, but you really need the mandrel to install the new sleeves. Fortunately, making a mandrel is a simple lathe project. This is my "may NOT need any machining" disclaimer. If you have a buddy with a lathe, he shoud be able to turn one out after he sees the pictures in the tractor manual. I used to see v8-60 sleeves on EBay fairly frequently, but haven't looked in a while. I can't recall if I have any extra sleeves. If your search comes up empty, give me a shout and I'll look. Also can give pointers on how to modify a screwdriver to crush the sleeves if you don't figure out a way. Good luck and have fun, Farmalldan Well, dang. I was too slow.
Dan, You are right. I have a lathe, and I'm pretty sure I can make or modify a punch to get the old liners out, and a plug to keep the new ones from crushing. I have heard it might work better to press them in with a home made all thread doohickey than trying to drive them in.
If there is any ridge on the cylinder bores. Use a ridge reamer before removing the pistons. For some reason, lots of guys pull the pistons and then ream the ridge. The idea is to allow the pistons to come out without the rings catching on the ridge and distorting the ring land when you pound it out. The ring has to seal against the ring land as well as the cylinder bore to do it's job
will the pistons come out the bottom? they do on lots of early engines...no problem with the ridge that way, easier to re use pistons and rings.
Rich, I can't feel a ridge on any of them. Haven't measured yet, though. Jim, Looks like they might come out from the bottom, they're pretty small.
I don't have any pictures of this, but it's interesting to me. V8 60 pistons won't come out through the top. The big ends of the connecting rods are larger than the bore. I have it on my engine stand, going to drop the crank and pull them from the bottom. No big deal, I was going to drop it anyway to check the bearings. I know to keep all the caps in order, by the way.
Well, I should have known better. Turns out they do come out from the top, it's just a very tight clearance with the big ends. Lying on my back looking up, I couldn't see that one side of the rod was catching on the little lip the sleeve makes. Like I said, I was planning to drop the crank, anyway, I'm glad I did. Everything looks pretty good, to me. I haven't mic'ed anything, and don't plan to (no offense, but this is kind of a poor boy deal). Cam looks new. Rings look fairly good, too. Even the ones that were in the pitted bores. It must have never run much after that water got in there, maybe only my 10 seconds? Here are some pictures. Don't fuss at me for doing this outside, I don't really have another option.
I don't know about V8-60's, but back in the day plenty of regular flatheads survived "to fight another day" after just such outdoor, low budget rebuilds. I shudder when I think of some of the things I got away with. The only thing that is different these days is the scarcity and value of these things. I was bidding locally on an extremely grungy "tin-side" that was stuck badly. I dropped out at $200. It went for well over $800.
I've done outside rebuilds before, just not on a flathead. You can keep things clean with a little foresight and effort, especially in a limited job like this is. As long as I don't introduce any comtamination, I don't think I'll harm the value of it. I removed the three liners I'm replacing. Made a little drift from bronze so I wouldn't scar up my cylinder walls. It was really pretty easy. drove the drift though and then drove them out from the bottom with a section of copper pipe, again to protect the cylinders. I was worried that that worst pitting had penetrated past the sleeve into the cast iron, but I got lucky and all three bores are clean. I'm including a picture that shows the bit of cross-hatching still visible in the liners. I'm thinking this is a pretty low mileage engine. Haven't seen any signs that anyone has been into it before me.
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