Technical What's the deal with Horsepower Lately?

I always liked the honesty of calculating the "work" it takes to move XXXX lbs @ XXX MPH.

When I was racing I used math quite often to keep tabs on how the ol iron head 477 was doing. It took just shy of 600 RWHP to move 3545# of race car 128 MPH. Adding the parasitic losses to the figure could give me flywheel HP numbers for barstool dicussions. I was always in the neighborhood of 700 HP, sometimes 714, sometimes 705, then I used a long formula I found that could estimate HP based on several factors. Things like port CFM in the heads, port volume, compression, cam specs, carb CFM, and of course cylinder volume. That program told me that in an optimal state of tune it was making 728 HP. It seemed a little much to me knowing what I had and what my initial goal was (650+). In most of my figures I'd take away a 5% to assume real world, like removing the erection factor.

Now if we fast forward to today (that was in the mid 90s) there's a lot of changes in how to create and use HP. Forced induction by way of centrifugal blowers and turbos, computer controled fuel delivery (even with N2O), and "designer" fuels or straight methanol. I'm sure I could easily double what I was doing before given enough budget and the will to pull it off, neither of which I have or want these days. I'll take an old big block and smelly carbs over the sterile injected stuff that's better suited to daily transportation. Shit, today we have diesel technology that nets single digit ETs (!) being used in race cars and race trucks. The current record is 8.07, with a diesel!

We've come a long way, and still the majority of us on these pages prefer the past and try to ignore the rest. Even that's mutated a bit sometimes.

 

Just have an anti-bullshit, dyno day.

 

For $10K (1960's dollars) you can now buy 5000 HP off the shelf ($66.9K today). I'm sure that there
were people in the 60's that would give their left one or $10K to get 5000. Horsepower is no longer
an individuals genius anymore.
https://www.prolineracing.net/blogs/engines/plr-481x

 

It's easy to make big power these days. I always said "torque moves mountains and horse power is how many mountains you want to move".

Where's Falcon George? He would be able to shed some light on this issue!

 

That's what is called a difference without a distinction.

One is the individual, one is the culture.

Tomáto tomāto.

The backlash is just the militant ignorati, previously unchecked, frustrated that a polite society is no longer tolerating their antisocial and dysfunctional behavior.

 

I just need what I can use. The rest is wasted.

 

Very interesting read......We've all lusted for more HP/faster/quicker..... If you say otherwise, i'de say your full of shit. The time's are a changing. You can now buy HP like never before. Some do, and some don't. Just because (we) stick to what (we) like, doesn't mean that the technology should be discounted......
And- what really is too much? Think= Back then- (your back then), you never had enough, now it's available in many shapes and forms,and if your able to achieve it, you can have it.
So with all the hype about the big numbers these days- Would I embrace the new world HP/engines? Sure thing. Will I go out and buy me some? Probably not. How would those big numbers that are available be used?
Everyone likes a different flavor...... Be it the salt, the 1/4 mile, or just "having".....
Just for fun, and just day dreaming a lil out of the box here, I'de like something that would push about 1000+ HP, a couple of snails on it, idle around 7-8hun, and haze the tires at any given moment. Very achievable in todays world......Won't be happening with me, but it's something that's happening out there right now.

 

300 ponies is all I need for a daily..... I'm happy with mine..

 

The newer air pumps are more efficient.

 

You can get a production car now that right out of the dealership will run faster times than the AA/G cars of the 1960's

 

...... And you get a crate full of parts...

 

HP is relative to what you want it to do. I'm building a T Bucket. The engine I'm having built should produce about 300 HP. In a car with a weight of 1,700 lbs., that's plenty. Power to weight. I know a guy who has a blown 427 BBC in his T Bucket. He showed me his dyno sheet and it peaked at 650 HP. Even he admitted he'll never see it or use it on the street and he doesn't race. So, my thought is.... what's the point? Bragging rights?

 

Yep. If your not using it.... Just a pissing contest..... But some have to say I have this.......
Interesting times we live in.

 

1 Rear wheel hp per 10 lbs of weight makes for a very fun street car that takes just a little bit of driver skill. That level of power gets you into mid 12 second 1/4 mile.

 

300hp is what Ford rated my motor.... I haven't done nothing to the car at all....

 

Do you think when the manufacturers dyno one they take some + or - spec engine off the assembly line, or more than likely, blueprint a few for testing.

I read somewhere that the 302 Z-28's were a case of selective reporting. For insurability purposes they reported 290 hp at xxxx rpm. (true statement) But, if you spun them up a little more they maxed out at 315.

 

They definitely gave big block powered cars a run for the money..... At least mine did.....

 

Your last sentence refutes your assertion and proves his. You (not a nameless, faceless 'culture') wrapped yourself in the flag of "polite society" but resorted to name calling: "militant ignorati", "dysfunctional behavior" to shame instead of dealing with facts. Textbook political correctness. What are you doing on a hot rod forum anyway? Nothing about traditional hot rodding has anything to do with "polite society."

 

Building a motor to produce 600 to a 1000 hp is basicly childs play today. The thing that gets me is someone will brag that he's building a 600 plus hp motor, but he is putting it in a basic street car that 350 hp would over power and be a handful and has no intention of taking it to the track! And even if he did , he would not have the safety equipment to be legal to run at the et range it should run. Like Fred said, whats the point. Larry

 

Not picking on you Fred, is that sort of like your avatar?

 

Cute hypothesis. Too bad it doesn't qualify to become a theory.

 

Are we racing, cruising or just BSn about HP/Torque. FACT, Today's new car technologies have amazing HP/Torque, will go around corners , stop on a dime, A/C comfort /amenity's and get great gas mileage to boot. Our HAMB is old stuff pre 64 technology which by 64 was great compared to 54 technology to 44 etc. Myself being a history nerd appreciate the old cars, have had a few in my time and being a baby boomer have seen many advancements that are beyond anything of my imagination. Now we all have access to chassis dyno's for tuning with real results at reasonable cost, for a drag racer, its perfect for the engine tune. 50+ years, I have played with Race cars, Hot Rods, Street rides, the advancements blow me away, remember when a good 406 CI SBC/Sprint car engine early 90's was 700 HP, today they are 900 HP+, good 160 CI Midget 4 cylinder race engine in the late 70's/early 80's was around 250/260 HP now @ 400+ I'm told. Today a 350 SBC for your Rod gets you into 400 HP/TORQUE+ for around 4/5 K(Cheap IMO) We are all living in the best time ever for big HP/TORQUE at reasonable $$$ involved, not that long ago race engines, 1 HP per/ CI was big, then 2 HP per/, now 2.5 per/ is obtainable all this naturally aspirated, add turbo's or superchargers and the numbers become WOW ! 2005-10, I used to do custom machine work for a company that built GM 2.0 Ecotek engines, turbocharged that made 1000 HP on dyno, that's 8+HP per cubic inch, AMAZING !

 

Great discussion people!

The advances in technology are mind boggling to say the least.

Where does this leave the vintage or dare I say traditional Hot Rodders?

I think in a very comfortable place. A place that's enjoyable. Not to sound too sappy but a place with the perspective of enjoying the past without being...King of the Valley?

Let's take the Early small block Ford in the F1.
1968 4 bbl heads.....by post modern standards, they suck.
Ancient Crane Fireball 294 cam (hydro version of the Lemans).....sucks
Stealth manifold.....dated
Mallory distributor or points....I have run both right now it has the Mallory.....sucks
Cast Iron manifolds..........sucks
Holley 1850...... dated
I can add a Torker 289......sucks

At one time this was top shelf stuff. Really that ancient cam....the manifolds mentioned worked well for the poor Ford Heads. All that dated stuff works pretty good together. It worked good then it can work good now. It's not 400 hp,good but it does not need to be.

It's no different than a flathead with a 3/4 cam and 2 Pots. Can it take a Coyote Mustang? No and why should it?

Folks can do what they want but I met a fellow on a recent parts trip. This guy had a 60s Mustang. He was bound and determined to be that King of the Valley. He talked of all the modifications to his car and his iron block. He had done everything to that car and engine but send it to college. It was his mission to beat the new stuff with his old stuff. In the process though, I think he lost the car.
It had....
The newest suspension.....
Fuel injection.....
Plans for a turbo....
Computer control.....
On and on and on.
Even with all this, he's fighting a battle that's already over. The worm has turned. It's like a 1930s car vs a 1960s car.
In the not too distant past 1990 or so he could of been a contender. Not now the gulf in technology is too great.
To accomplish or come close to accomplishing his goal means making that old car into something it never was......A hybrid of 2018 and 1965.....
I could not help but think about....Flatheads.....Inlines...FEs even SBFs and SBCs....( belly buttons).... they are all vintage engines now.
They are what they are.

With this Traditional thing, I think we need to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. I think it's much more fun.

It's still there though. Taking an old car and making the original engine better ....the best it can be with what it has. Or...... hopping it up with a bigger but still vintage engine.

You are not going to run with the new stuff but that's not what it's about.
As dated as the F1's engine is....man it's got a sweet idle. Still...it's 3x the HP of it's original R series V8.

 

The thing that amazes me is, the daughters "soccer mom" van. It has a 300 hp V-6, weighs nearly 4000#, handles like a Go-kart, and the kids wave at me as they pull away from the light and leave me in the dust! I'm trying everything NOT to peel the tires or draw too much attention, and they leave without me! Yikes!

But, our 7 year old grandson says, "Momma, I like Papa's hot rod!" She says, "Why is that?" He says, "Because I can hear the motor running!" That makes it worth it all!

 

57 Chevy dude , my avatar weighed 2580 with me in it and had a 5.86 gear and a 1.82 glide with a 5800
stall convertor. It hit the rev limiter at about the first mile an hour marker at Bowling Green which was the only time I ran 1/4 mile and only ran 128 mph.

 

When you talk about cars, you make sense. When you talk about ideas, you're an elitist jerk who dismisses anything you don't agree with. Or understand.
Ignored.

 

Hey G,

We did not have a lot of money either, but we needed to find out what was happening at the power given to the rear tires. Most of the drag racers at Lions were Long Beach area locals and told us of a place that did the dyno readings. Then we could compare what was doing what, from the motor HP to the tires.

Small tuning adjustments, different rear gear ratios vs tires, tire air pressure, and the types of tires, etc, were all part of the equation. So, we needed a reading like all of the other guys at Lions. Shop talk proved that those adjustments did make the car go faster and then became the "speed secrets" of the early days of drag racing.

Jnaki

Of course, throwing in a better cam, lifters, getting the ports cleaned up and polished, all made the car run faster, but by then, it was no longer in the stock car class. So, in came the C&O Stick Hydro for quicker off of the line starts for more advantage in racing anywhere. It still worked until I sold the Impala in 1965. Then, it was a different driver and knowledge.

“Turns out that different horsepower dynamometers will spit out different results on the same car depending on their design and how carefully the tester manages the variables. When ambient air temperature and pressure were all that yesterday's carburetors cared about, factoring in the variables was easy.

But before you pop the clutch on your tongue, consider that a chassis dyno doesn't measure horsepower at the flywheel but at the tires after various driveline losses have subtracted their drag. Friction from rubbing gear faces, inertia from heavy shafts, and the stirring of oatmeal-like gear lube all reduce the advertised horsepower reaching the tires and, hence, the dyno.

Some tuners use the so-called 15/20 rule, which assumes a 15-percent driveline loss for manual transmissions and 20 percent for automatics.

So unless it's printed in the brochure or was measured on a true engine dyno or by a tuner with tons of experience with your particular brand of car, any flywheel horsepower number quoted by a hot rodder under the shade tree is most likely just a calculated guess.”

 

now, now. Be nice. He already thinks people dont like him

 

There's nothing wrong with being polite, and it should be universal.
Should one deem themselves an authority on being polite then that comes with the responsibility to lead by example, operating under the presumption that otheres may not being rude by choice but because they are unaware of what exactly is polite aka rudeness no longer begets rudeness.