Technical ***April 2018 Banger Meet - Don't Be Fooled Into More than 4***

I've a big correction to make: The Santa Margarita Time Trials will NOT be held on the 14th of July as I'd previously stated. The whole program will be a week earlier. Friday the 6th through the weekend!

Sorry about any confusion I've caused!

 

Hey everyone! I haven't posted in a SUPER long time anywhere on the HAMB, and because it's Friday and I'm not focused on the things I'm SUPPOSED to be doing, I was thinking about a banger project I have going on in the background...

...But of course, I decided to post following the terrible news of Bluto passing. So first off, that sucks. Was definitely a great wealth of knowledge and I will miss his posts.

I don't really know how the Banger Meet works, but it seems like a good place to ask banger questions.... so here goes and tell me to get lost if I'm not following the rules.

So, I have a 26/27 roadster project going on in the background. I'm building the car around an early AR banger (#415 in production, 1927) that was given to me that belonged to a good friend of mine that passed away. So, swapping to a B motor or something like that is not the answer for my project, despite all that can be done to them. So, I guess the question is, what all can I do with this little guy? I think it was mentioned to me that these earlier engines are a little different than the later A engines.

So I suppose this is where I should mention the intentions for the car. Really, I'm not looking to dump thousands of dollars into this engine, but would like to get what I can out of it for basic touring. I plan to put a later V8 trans behind it and I have a 2-speed Columbia for highway travel. I've been thinking high compression head, intake (I have a winfield single carb downdraft and a duel 2x2 downdraft to choose from), lightened flywheel, exhaust header of some kind, maybe a balanced crank... I don't know. What else should I consider that would be somewhat inexpensive "free" power to build a reliable motor that can get this little lightweight roadster moving nicely down the road.

This is probably all review for you guys, but if you can point me to some considerations for the build, or if there's a thread I should be reading post me a link. Or if there's some books I should consider getting that I could relate to, let me know. Thanks guys!

(Yes, I will finish the Murray before I start building this)

 

Buy Jim Brierley's book, and read it. ( I bout it but haven't read it. )

.

 

Awesome! Thank buddy! I'll dig that one up!

Weren't you telling me this engine has a 5 bearing cam, or something?

I feel like the 2x2 might be a bit much for this engine. Was thinking maybe the Winfield single carb down-draft with a 97 on top might be a good reliable and simple setup. But, maybe not. Thoughts?

 

Hi, #415 WOW... First the high compression head... If you choose the highest, you will need later bearings... Not poured...
Contact Bill Stipe for a camshaft... or other grinder...
Porting intake and exhaust?

http://www.autonetnewengland.com/36...ents/to-our-fellow-gearheads/253-model-a-tech



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Just found that link while Googling the name Dan listed above. Thank you!

Yep, 415! First round of production, I suppose. I forget the actually date. September 1927, or something. I need to look it up again.

I'm open to porting and polishing, if it makes sense. Sure!

Talk to me about later bearings. What's involved with making that change?

 

Is there a "best" place for folks to get Jim Brierley's book? We should probably have that in the banger link list.

 

http://www.modelatrader.com/brumfield/headtext.html

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http://www.modelaparts.net/dyno.htm/dyno.html

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When the model T production finished, Ford spend one year preparing the factory for the new Model A Ford... Engine blocks were casted before the first model A rolls out...
So maybe the born of that #415 engine is unknown...

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Great links!! Very interesting read about the 6.5:1 sort of being the highest compression before needing to switch to insert bearings.

I would have liked to seen more dyno results with more downdraft carbs, like Strombergs and Holleys. Most of them were with OHV conversions.

 

Here's what's listed on MAFCA's site:
"November - #138 to #971 produced 834"

 

More dyno results here:

http://www.modelaparts.net/dynosheets.htm/dynosheets.html

The whole web site is a good source for Model A performance information

.

 

He has a listing for his cam and book here:

https://www.hotforhotfours.com/advertisers.htm#fsignitions-thunderbolt

.

 

The first 200,000 or so blocks were made with 5 bearing cams. Finding good 5 bearing cams for regrind is difficult. So if yours has a good cam, and you want a higher lift/duration cam, you will probably have to have yours re-ground.

I think the "later" bearings referred to above are inserts. Switching to inserts involves machine work and additional cost. If you stay @ 6:1 comp. ratio, then the stock babbit is fine. If you only run 6:1 CR then a single 97 will be good. two might be a bit much.

Open the intake ports. You can do that. but don't if you don't do a head, cam, and carb.

Light flywheel is a must if those mods are done. don't go lighter then 38-40 lbs.

If you counter weight the crank, then it will have to be straightened and probably machined. If the crank has to be machined, the new bearings are in order.

The cost can "snowball" pretty fast. tear down and inspect your engine before you start buying bolt on parts. You may find it cheaper to build/buy another engine.

.

 

Okay! That actually sounds like a good recipe without going too nuts. And honestly, the whole car is supposed to be a somewhat fun budget build. I think limiting myself to the limitations of the engine I have is probably a good exercise in just fun hot rodding and easier on my wallet. I'll keep it to 6:1, maybe a "B" grind on the A cam (I'll have to inspect it so see if it's good), stay with babbits, use my Winfield intake and adapt the 97 I have, port the intake and exhaust ports, run the aftermarket dizzy I have, build a header for it, and just run the stock type rotating assembly with a lightened flywheel and V8 style clutch.

Is there any benefit to a B crank with the mains turned down to A diameters?

Head suggestions on heads? Seems like there are a lot of options. I don't need a stock look. Maybe the lower compression aluminum Winfield (6.4:1 I think was the lower) and an overbore to lower the compression back down just a bit? Something else? Sorry... I'm sure there's a ton of discussions on this.

 

Is there any benefit to a B crank with the mains turned down to A diameters?[/QUOTE]

Your early A engine has a crankshaft design that evolved from the Model T crankshaft and is skinnier in the webs than the later A crankshafts or B crankshafts. If you plan to weld on counterweights and lean on your new hot banger, I would recommend using a later A crank at a minimum for somewhat more durability than the early design. You eliminate most of the advantage of a B crank (larger journals) if you cut it down to A dimensions. I broke an early A crank and a late A crank before ponying up for a new forged Burlington crank and insert bearings in the latest iteration of my A engine. This is a little more spendy than modifying original used crankshafts, but they have all been through millions of flex cycles and are waiting to fail.

Don't bother porting to get bigger ports; do it to clean up the flashing an lumps and edges, especially if you add valve seats. Watch out for a lip at the bottom of the seat and at the edge of the block where it transitions to the intake manifold. Your early block will have machined recesses for gland rings at the intake ports, so for maximum clean air flow you should blend the intake ports to the diameter of the gland ring recesses at the edge of the block. Carefully match your intake manifold to the block openings; most cast manifolds are pretty sloppy as far as matching the engine ports. You will also find that some manifold gaskets will not match your opened up intake ports because the later Model A engines eliminated the gland rings on the intake manifolds. Look for gaskets that were made for Model B engines as they have larger intake ports than Model A's.

Finally, I would recommend going to larger intake valves, even on a mild street motor. You will be there working on valve seats anyway, and you will likely be changing from the original tulip-stemmed valves to the more modern straight-stemmed valves, so go bigger while you have the chance. You can also run any three bearing cam in a block with five cam journals, so getting a usable cam core is fairly easy. Jim Brierly offers some great performance reground cams for a reasonable price.

For dyno information on a variety of different engine builds go to the website for Piranios in Texas, lots of good data there.

 

Wouldn't an overbore actually increase compression ratio a bit?

Lynn

 

details details..............

 

Gah... yes. I’m thinking about that backwards. Good point!

In fact, if that is the case, am I better to start with a much lower compression head assuming an overbite will be needed and deck the block a bit and maybe do a bit of work to the head to make room for the pistons?

It makes sense to do the valve swap mentioned above, I guess. I suppose the cam grind I go with will tell me rather or not I need to modify the head for clearance as well.

Lots of good points. And thanks for straightening me out on that. I was thinking of head volumes...


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The amount of CR increase by boring the block is pretty small so buy the head you want and do not worry about it.
I see fellas try to flycut the heads to increase CR and then use two gaskets, IMHO that is a recipe for disaster.
The valves will clear most heads even on performance grind cams, unless you do something stupid like us.
It is not advisable to deck the top of the block off any more than necessary to seal up the cylinders, it is too thin to begin with.

J

 

I can't agree more than what "5280A2" posted. It is not a simple thing to take a stock A or B engine, just do a few things to it and figure you've got a "highway cruiser". Anything significant you do (higher compression, more breathing and "tall" gearing is going to put exponentiation stress on some very fragile components (pistons, rods, bearings and FOREMOST the crank. If you don't fully address the WHOLE engine, you're liable to experience what many of us have:
BANG! clankity-clank-clank!

 

While I'm at it (the computer) this is the correct flyer to the F.A.S.T. Santa Margarita Time Trials. What IS missing that Friday there will by a gathering during the afternoon at another ranch in the San Luis Obispo area; and a "cook you own" steak dinner at the local Elk's Lodge. If you can't cook there'll be plenty of help! To attend these you must call Phil Farber at the number on the flyer. Sunday there is an "Early Ford" gathering in the adjacent Atascadero Lake Park!

 

Thanks to all of you who have replied! I’m going to pick up some books, do some reading, and just enjoy educating myself until it’s time to build that motor. The feedback has been super helpful!


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Morning Gentlemen,

Machine shop question, thinking ahead about the flat motor I am "building", in the grand scheme and process of such where do I start on the bottom end? The plan:

1. Insert bearings
2. Full pressure
3. Moldex Crank
4. Upgraded main caps & bolts (for A crank dimensions)

I have the main caps and bolts, so, do I take it the machine shop have it line bored, then the bearing size is known? and then spec the crank? or do I spec the crank (purchase), then get the block line bored. The reason I ask is, by going to the shop first, they can tell me what size bearings I can run and just how straight the whole mess is or isn't. Once I had that information, it seemed that getting a crank made would be more logical as the max dimensions would be known...the whole easier to remove than add bit.

 

Just had a conversation with Dennis Piriano and he isn't building any more B blocks because of the deck thickness issues. I know there is more to deal with pressurizing an A block and there is a relatively easy way to pressurize the center main by tapping into the block by the oil pump mount area and running a line to the center main.
Dennis is line boring an A block to accept a B crank so a conversation with him might be in order getting your head around this, especially if you are going the expense of a new crank.
I'm trying to get my head around my nest step in building an engine as well. Automotive machine work is something I mostly have to hire done so I want to make sure I have a clear vision of the end product.
The engine for racing is going to be different than the one for the Mojave Mile.
Brierley states that rod dippers are good up to 4k rpm so let that be a consideration om pressurization.
My model a with a counterbalanced A crank, inserted, rods and mains, high pressure oil pump, 94 Holley, B dizzy with advance work and Lion II head will do Highway speeds all day long in the Cabby, though it has an overdrive.
My .02 worth at the moment....[/QUOTE]

 

I'm putting together an other OHV 'B' block conversion and wanted more oil volume. This is what I came up with...


It is an A pump with '35 to '48 V-8 oil pump gears, the straight ones with 11 tooth count. They are .30" longer than the A gears so the spacer is to accommodate them. What isn't showing is that the stock side admission has a cap silver brazed over the opening. The base plate has been opened up for bottom inlet which allows for oil pickup in the lowest placement in the pan plus no air leak in the shroud where it bolts to the pump. I've done this in a couple other applications and like the results. I can't see spending the kind of stupid money that is being commanded for one of the new pumps.

Larry

 

I also run a v8 modified pump . steady pressure at all times . what is the brass thing on your pump ?
this is my bottom end

 

Steve,
it looks like the pressure relief valve.

I found this in my garage the other day.................

 

ok , mine is in the pump . yea sure , you just happened to find a 30-31 awesome coupe . nice car