Technical Re-VIN Tagging my project

Well, maybe everything has been okay up until now. Everybody has to start somewhere. Look at the can of worms he opened with just one post!

 

I'm not sure what tag you are referring to.
If you have a fiberglass body the VIN tag on the original steel hull cannot be attached to the fiberglass tub. You can keep it or destroy it so no-one ever tries to VIN is attached to the frame and/or body. Engines/drivetrains tend to have partial VINs or serial numbers that match the original frame/hulls.
The original VIN tag cannot be attached to the fiberglass tub.

Messing with VINs is just goofy.

 

"fell off during the rebuild"

Right up there with:
"What are you, a cop?"
"Are you writing a book?"
"Fell off a truck."
"What's it to you."

If the tag was on the metal body, and it "fell off", then the chain-of-custody that proves vehicle ownership has been broken.

 

You can look up the make, model, engine type and a lot of other info from a Vin no.

 

Yes...you can...but that was not the point of my comment. The whole thread is related to the legal status of an identification number that was assigned/attached to a vehicle when manufactured. A 'serial number' was that legal identity in the same manner that the more comprehensive VIN is used since it's introduction. Actually, some serial numbers can be used to reveal a few facts about the vehicle to which they were assigned. Fords, for example, began with a model number....others may indicate plant of manufacture or series or body type.

Ray

 

You have the title. Done. Make tag done. Worries none.

 

When I built my Morris Minor . I went through a ugly divorce and had to go to court to get my car back. After getting the car back I realized that she had kept the VIN tag and all the receipts for all of my parts. So no way to get a tag.
I was looking on ebay and found reproduction VIN tags for sale in England. Ordered one , stamped the numbers on it and drove to the DMV in Florida . They came out looked at the car and said looks good to me.
The car has been registered in at least 3 different states by 3 different people. Of course this was a steel body car and not fiberglass. My present Morris I have all the receipts and will register it in Tn. as a reconstructed vehicle.
Do what you want ,but I would not stick an original VIN on a glass car.

 

Argh! This makes my blood boil.

Never get married.

 

Until you get stopped by a zealous member of the constabulary or
get in a wreck and get your insurance company involved or
Try to sell the car and the buyer runs into titling issuse and you can't sell it to anyone.

Often there is some reasoning behind doing things correctly the first time and correcting issues as they arise.

 

Since the title has been in your name for so long there should be no worries about any problems,if I was in the same situation I would get a reproduction tag and try to stamp the correct looking numbers and attach it in the same area where it was located on the original body. The body tag on my 37 Chevy p/u was screwed on from the factory so just put it on and go,most people who would know are most likely dead.

 

The glass body screws you no matter what. You now have a kit car and will have to follow the dmv procedures for reconstructed/ kit car registration . Had you rebuilt the original body , registering it as a hobbyist plate would have been a piece of cake. The process will take a couple months and the car will need a inspection . And the more documentation you have the better . This is why I do not build glass bodied street rods any more. Good luck and please do not try to cheat the system. It won't end well. Larry

 

I am going to play the devils advocate... What about the rusty mustang with new roof firewall floor frame rails etc. The camaro with new body or just like the old axe 7 replacement handles and 5 heads but same old axe. Just saying

 

Your, My or Our opinion does not matter one whit. What matters is the law as written in the State
in which the issue arises and the prosecutors, insurance company lawyers and/or Judges who have the authority to determine the outcome.

Ray

 

My repop VIN tag. It has survived 3 state inspections in 3 different states.

 

Is that a fiberglass body?

 

Waste of time if the op cant come back to his own post and add anything.....

 

As a means of unique identification for the purposes of demonstrating ownership a VIN has no advantage over a serial number or even a non-numerical symbol, cipher, or mark – provided a record of that exists in a reputable context not attached to the vehicle. And while a VIN can secondarily serve this purpose that is not the reason for its existence.

The reason for the VIN is that it gives legal status to the concept of model type. Some may struggle to get their heads around the idea that without it, each individual car is effectively unique in law. The VIN gives a particular legal value to the extent and manner in which any particular individual car is similar to another car of the same model type.

Whether or not this is a good thing is a matter for debate, and I fear not in this forum. Suffice it to say that my opposition in principle to type approval of any kind is implacable.

 

"Whether or not this is a good thing is a matter for debate, and I fear not in this forum. Suffice it to say that my opposition in principle to type approval of any kind is implacable."
???? Are you a lawyer????

 

Dawie,
You know that in prior posts I have expressed my appreciation of your extensive knowledge and command of language when sharing that knowledge.

So, with that said.....you ‘may’ be correct about the purpose of the VIN ......but I really don’t think so. I spent my entire working life in the automobile business (I am 74) and experienced first hand the transition from serial number to VINs, actually about three stages as I recall.

Never in that time did I hear, read or see any reference to ‘type approval’ in relation to the VIN data sequence or origin. In the US, where I live, it is the undisputed identifier of a motor vehicle and all it’s significant components. Any major part is marked with the VIN to provide a ‘chain of custody’ or proof of lawful ownership of the vehicle or it’s components. That was done to thwart thieves and chop shops. Legal salvage yards document the sale of components on the Bill or Sale by description of the part and the VIN on the part. It is a felony offense to obliterate that VIN label on any component part.

The information contained in a VIN is extensive, identifying the country of origin as an assembled vehicle, year model, the body style and trim level, engine, production sequence (serial) and more. That is beneficial to both the dealer or servicing entity for obtaining correct parts as well as law enforcement when those issues arise.

The only ‘type approval’ that I can think of is that vehicles have to meet applicable FMVSS
(Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards) in effect at the time of manufacture and for the model year applicable.

Aircraft , on the other hand, do have a “Type Certificate” that is tacit government approval for the aircraft to be produced to a configuration that strictly complies with that TC. Any variations of that TC must be approved by the FAA before commercial (public) use or sale.

There is a similarity, I concede, in requiring motor vehicles to meet FMVSS and the aircraft Type Certificate, but they are definitely not the same. An explanation of the significant differences would add too much to an already lengthy post.

Respectfully,
Ray

 

Looks like we may have scared off a potential scammer, buyer beware.

 

Be very careful. I agree with many past statements. Playing around with tags could result in some serious trouble. It varies from state to state. I would first contact DMV in your state. They might have a number that they could assign as a composite vehicle. You will most likely need valid receipts for all your parts and it could be a pain but at least give you some right answers and peace of mind.

 

Here is a piece of advice for which no one has asked: Remember the guy in Florida that had his car stolen as couple of years ago? Gallentine, maybe? Anyhow, some of his difficulties were made worse by registration problems and records problems and his failure to make it 100% right from the jump.

I went through a problem with my '37 Chevrolet I bought several years ago. It came with a bonded Texas title that was accepted by Missouri and re-registered/titled to me. Some years after that there was a problem with the ID number as it was the same as another '37 Chevy in Montana. Letter writing, phone conversations, forms going back and forth, and inspections by the state folks, etc. Finally, the state issued a VIN plate and put it on my car. The title noted "engine change" for the reason as in the olden days cars were titled by the engine number. Either a previous owner of my car or the guy in Montana put together a number and it came back to bite me. Now no more problems and no more worry.

Oh, and bragging about a counterfeit ID tag on a public forum is simply asinine.

 

The Zipper (avatar) was built from scratch. Took all the receipts to the DMV, got an appraisal and a bond. Colorado Highway Patrolman attached a small tag with a serial number with tamper proof screws on the driver side door jam. Safety check was lights, brakes, horn and steering.

BTW, wasted $300 on Broadway Title trying to cut corners!

 

Oh Bullcrap. I've owned over 400 cars in four states and specialize in resurrecting long lost cars from their early graves. I've dealt with every possible VIN and title situation you can think of and I learned a LONG time ago, you don't ask the morons at the DMV for advice. Most of them do not have a CLUE about old cars, past VIN methods or laws or tag locations or VIN stamps. They have no idea where these numbers are located, what they are supposed to look like or what the specific manufacturers VIN methods were.

If everyone thought like you and followed the laws in the manner you prescribe, half of the cars on the HAMB would not be in existence anymore. Furthermore, according to what you posted, you would advocate turning in the OP for his removal of the original VIN tag and sending him to federal prison. Get real.

 

Any of the buyers of any of the claimed 400 vehicles ever have any issues at a later date or are you stating they were fine in your possession only?

 

I can tell you for a fact that the Iowa State inspector who came out to view my car for the bonded title application knew that in mid 1926 Ford started stamping the serial number on the frames. He knew the proper lettering style when he saw it on the engine block. Maybe they are just smarter in Iowa?

 

Well, I see now a few guys from Wisconsin have posted and I am from Wisconsin too so I will throw my 2 cents in as well...

The Wisconsin DMV is pretty strict on what and what will not get by. It has been my experience that you follow the rules to the letter and you don't try to jerk them around. One Bad 51 Merc has summed it up pretty nicely and accurately. If you plan to go to the DMV and bullshit your way through to getting a fiberglass bodied car registered with a reproduced VIN tag you will be doing so at your own peril. Sure there is a chance you might get lucky...but I would suggest that you don't take that chance. If you get caught the best case will be that you get fined and possibly lose your car. Worst case is all of the above plus you get to be sombody's girlfriend in the county or state prison.

 

When I called the VIN officer at C.H.P. to get my '34 verified, the first thing he asked was if the engine had been changed. I said yes and he asked if the engine number matched the pink slip. I said no, but the frame number matched. This "expert" told me I was out of luck because Ford used engine numbers. I politely informed him of his error and offered to bring documentation of this well known fact. He basically told me to go pound sand. I found a non-vin officer who gladly verified the frame number. Some are idiots, some are not. You never know which one you're going to get until it's too late.

 

You are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts.

That fact is, is that much of the advice provided here in this thread is patently illegal, and will bring unwanted attention to our hobby. Pulling stupid title shit will get new laws passed, by uncaring politicians. Don't be the ass-clown that gets hot rods and customs legislated out of existence.

You might live in a lazy state, where they don't bother to enforce the laws, but the next guy who gets a car from you might not. Don't think for a second that the average person is going to protect you, if it means turning you in to protect themselves.

Where I live, the folks at the DMV and the average CHP officer know very well what they are looking at, as it is part of their training (I know CHP officers, old and new), and if they don't, your car will be heading to CHP, where a state inspector WILL know (I know them, too), and WILL find all of your numbers. If there anything wrong, you will never see your car again.

Every single DMV, in all 50-states, has a big book that describes what to look for, where, number sequences, typefaces, character size. That reference material is now computerized in many states, too. If you don't already know this, then it is you who are the one displaying ignorance here.

That electronic reference material is available to the public, I own the most current version of it, and it goes back to the 1930's. For earlier than that, I have to go to the book. Luckily, they are not making any new cars from before the 1930's.

I know people who have lost cars. One went to jail for possession of stolen property (after bargaining down from GTA). One lawyered-up real well and avoided it, but lost the car, court fees, and lawyer costs. Real talk.

Here is some more real talk, about how I know that I am right, and you are dangerously wrong. I am a California licensed and bonded Vehicle Verifier. In addition to all of my other tasks, it is my freakin' job to inspect VIN's and serial numbers. Not only do I know that I am right, so does the State of California, all 32,000,000 registered vehicles worth.

I am personally sworn, and duty bound, as an agent of the state, to report any suspected illegal activity, as is anyone in my position, and I know what I am looking at.

You are employing Russian Roulette Logic©. You can chamber a round every day, and still die of old age. It does not mean that Russian Roulette is safe, it means that you are lucky. That's it.

Luck is not a survival strategy.