Hot Rods Cowl Steering . . . just stop !

[QUOTE="Frames, post: 12497982, ..................No bump steer here.......[/QUOTE].
I think you should try the bounce the front and watch the steering wheel thing !

 

Someone mentioned W O O sprint cars. Yes they have long drag links and short radius rods. Even the Indy roadsters were like that. This is an I R A modified I built in 1971. Look close just behind the R F tire you can see the rod end for the bump steer idler. No bump steer here. PS; Bump steer is reduced to a few thousands of an inch on I F S late model racers today.

 

I knew Mr. Frings(frames) would show up sooner or later. I have had the pleasure of slobbering over his hot rods and he builds some impressive rides. I highly value his opinions as I do Petes'. Thanks again Pete for this block of education as we all need it......................

 

Oh yeah Pete. Could you share your current ride with us? We would like to see it.............

 

This is it, 1967 Dart Chaparral, & it has terrible "Ackerman " !



and, I have a cowl steer car too

 

Mr Eastwood,
15 years ago I bought a 34 Ford Sedan in Massachusetts that is sitting on a frame that was apparently constructed to clone the California Kid. The car has evolved and been constantly fiddled with over the years. One thing I would never touch is the frame and suspension set up. That car is an absolute joy to drive, I am spoiled. Other experienced hot rod owners and builders always compliment me on how well it drives.
She is one stout car, my hat is off to you, your knowledge and talent.
Jock deCamp

 

I second what Rossodino34 said about your frame and suspension. I've had my coupe for 20yrs with no problems. Jim Jacobs set up the suspension, you guys were a great team. Thanks for the photos but what about your daily driver? Thanks again for this thread..........

 

Dennis, That would qualify as a "Buick Special" !

 

This was my last driver, but, being self employed sometimes things get a little "thin ",
so this was sacrificed for the bill collector.
there is still a pile of '32 parts in the corner, so who knows what may grow out of them in the future.

 

I fail to see how sprint cars or any other speedway cars with chassis and suspensions, wheel stagger and a bunch of other construction methods done for the extremely specific purpose of going one way around a banked oval have anything to do with street cars.

 

1. My car is ok because this looks like mine
2. My car is ok because someone else did it that way
3. My car is not ok but I’ll find a photo to “prove” it’s ok
4. My head is stuck in my arse and I don’t want to admit I wouldn’t know bump steer from roll steer so I’ll post something childish or dumb to kill the thread
( in reference to why people put up photos of roundly round cars or odd shit in general)

 

Huh?

 

Agreed, even the large manufacturers don't always manage to work out every last bit
of niggle in their designs. Here in New Zealand we have strict guidelines as to construction
of chassis , brakes , steering, etc ....and the Cert guys will allow things past so long as they are within
specified tolerances..and those aren't much.

Bump steer can be SCARY and dangerous ...I'll go back now and read the rest of the thread

 

Don't know that I'd be comfortable with an axle moving that much over lots of road miles...things fatigue under those conditions....maybe an original Henry Ford axle but not a modern repro IMO

 

A tangent perhaps, and certainly not cowl steering in any form, but this thread has given me an idea for both another way to do rack and pinion steering with a solid axle and a way to do solid-axle steering with zero bump steer: mount the rack and pinion longitudinally on the wishbone.

Suspension movement at the rear of the wishbone is small, so the additional unsprung mass should be negligible. Likewise the movement at the bottom of the steering column will be small and generally perpendicular to steering inputs. A pair of universals and a sliding joint would deal with that.

(This would mean that a technically period build might need a modified rack and pinion, as early ones usually had no articulation between the pinion and the steering column. Both the Citroën 7CV/11CV's and the Morris Minor's were that way. Others, like the MGA and MGB – both very much within our era – had a universal joint at the bottom of the steering column. As for history, rack and pinion steering didn't begin in 1974 the same way WWII didn't begin in 1942. Citroën made millions of them from 1936 on, and they were soon not alone:
)

 

Look at these pictures [taken before it was modified into an ill-handling pig]



A lot of these cars with great history are generally preserved as "a photograph in time".[you choose what era it was preserved as]
The cowl steering done later on this car is a low point in it's engineering [and Ugly.........having a smooth cowl looks much better]

 

I've always wondered just how Spencer the "Spencer Roadster" actually is in its current form.
Wasn't it in pieces when sold by Mr Spencer?
Seems it might have been in a state of change and who's to say Doane Spencer wasn't about to do a 4 bar setup or something even more radical when he lost interest...or perhaps became MORE interested in another project.
From the bit I've read about him, it certainly wouldn't be unusual for him to be exploring new designs in suspensions and such.

 

And that one has "Bump Steer" of a whole differnt nature (caused by the wheel losing contact with the tarmac)

 

You mean this one?

 

Even though karts have solid suspension, they could tune the "roll stiffness" via controlled frame flex.
They put a stiffer rear bumper on the frame to cure "a push".

Karts also rely on caster to help the rear end unload the inside rear by diagonally transferring weight to the outside front on corner entry.

Frame flex and lifting [or unloading] wheels is what kart handling/tuning is all about.
90% of the time an aggressive driver will make them drive better

 

My quote was somewhat tongue in cheek - but I can tell you from experience when my Yamaha KT100 hit a big enough pot hole, rock, or inside curb, the resultant "Bump Steer" can break your wrist.

 

Are you sure it was a pothole and not the rear bumper corner of the kart in front.
The excessive scrub radius cannot be fixed on a kart

 

I thought Henry knew what he was doing. I made a bolt on steering arm that duplicated the stock 32 geometry. It worked perfectly. It is even angled forward like stock.

 

You can't ask for better steering/suspension geometry better than that! There isn't even a crack of daylight between that steering tie rod and the perch.

 

Yep ! & well done . . . .

 

A CR-125 with 6 speed and a clutch hides a lot of suspension sins.

 

Hey guys please don't bad mouth race cars. Yes our 1/2 mile dirt super stock at Perris has a wheel alignment that would make your head spin 360* but we have no bump steer. Even using a Camaro front suspension with Pinto spindles and angles of tires to get around a turn it's done. Just whip on someone else.... Thanks..
Thank Pete for all you do for us novices.

 

Could have been the flag man ......

 

Ned Ludd-- Some of the National T Bucket Alliance cars have the set up you're thinking of.

 

Since this thread started, I've learned, that geometry, example & experience are secondary, & unimportant.
If you believe a car doesn't have bump steer, that's all that's needed for proof !